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specific location for basic source documents


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#1 waffles

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 03:56 AM

I hope this isn't too basic of a question for the forum, but I did some basic searches and didn't find exactly what I was looking for.

So I have a birth fact entered and I want to include a scanned image of the birth certificate. I have entered relevant source information, but there appears to be two locations to store the media file - Master Source media or Source Details media (using RM4). I am unsure which is the better location for the scanned document. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance! -W

#2 Vyger

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 10:31 AM

I hope this isn't too basic of a question for the forum, but I did some basic searches and didn't find exactly what I was looking for.

So I have a birth fact entered and I want to include a scanned image of the birth certificate. I have entered relevant source information, but there appears to be two locations to store the media file - Master Source media or Source Details media (using RM4). I am unsure which is the better location for the scanned document. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance! -W

This perplexes me slightly as well. You can attach such media as documentation to the Person Media, the Fact/Event Media or the Source Media.

Since the introduction of the ability to attach such documentation to the event itself this is the approach I adopted. That does not mean my approach is the best approach just that it has suited me to date. Why I done that was that I could instantly see that I had media to support that event like a birth or marriage cert and therein lays the key to this problem.

Burying such documentation somewhere that it is not immediately obvious seems pointless to me, so when looking at an individual I want to instantly see that I have some documentation attached to support my facts.

Attaching such documentation to the Source would probably be the correct place for it but then I would have to go digging to find it again as there is no immediate indication that such an attachment exists.

You will likely hear many differing views on this and I would listen to them all before investing a lot of time and effort into something which you may want to change in the future.

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#3 Alfred

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 10:59 AM

A rather extreme example:

You can use the Encyclopedia Britannica as a source for several thousand people and facts.
adding all of the multimedia items to that source could make finding the proper one a bit daunting.

But, if you add the multimedia item to the citation it is right there, ready to view.

---
In the case of the birth certificate, if the source is "Mary Jayne Doe: birth certificate"
Then adding the multimedia to the source sounds reasonable.

But if the source is "Birth Certificate" and the citations are "Mary Jayne Doe," "Howard Eugene Smith," "John Henry" etc. then attaching the multimedia item to the citation seems more appropriate.
Alfred

#4 waffles

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 04:33 PM

This perplexes me slightly as well. You can attach such media as documentation to the Person Media, the Fact/Event Media or the Source Media.

Since the introduction of the ability to attach such documentation to the event itself this is the approach I adopted. That does not mean my approach is the best approach just that it has suited me to date. Why I done that was that I could instantly see that I had media to support that event like a birth or marriage cert and therein lays the key to this problem.

Burying such documentation somewhere that it is not immediately obvious seems pointless to me, so when looking at an individual I want to instantly see that I have some documentation attached to support my facts.

Attaching such documentation to the Source would probably be the correct place for it but then I would have to go digging to find it again as there is no immediate indication that such an attachment exists.

You will likely hear many differing views on this and I would listen to them all before investing a lot of time and effort into something which you may want to change in the future.


I completely agree that it feels like 'burying' the document by attaching it to the Source. I originally started by attaching media directly to facts but then realized that media could be attached directly to the source, which seems like the most logical place for it. But then I realized that Source-attached media wasn't readily available in Scrapbook 'Person' reports, and seemingly separated related data. So thanks very much for the comments and information, points well taken! -w

#5 waffles

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 04:49 PM

A rather extreme example:

You can use the Encyclopedia Britannica as a source for several thousand people and facts.
adding all of the multimedia items to that source could make finding the proper one a bit daunting.

But, if you add the multimedia item to the citation it is right there, ready to view.

---
In the case of the birth certificate, if the source is "Mary Jayne Doe: birth certificate"
Then adding the multimedia to the source sounds reasonable.

But if the source is "Birth Certificate" and the citations are "Mary Jayne Doe," "Howard Eugene Smith," "John Henry" etc. then attaching the multimedia item to the citation seems more appropriate.


Yes, maybe an encyclopedia is a bit extreme, but maybe not. However, it was definitely a scenario I haven't thought of (I'm fairly new to genealogical documentation) and the point was well made. Can you clarify that "add multimedia item to the citation" means the same as adding media item to the fact (I just want to make sure I'm not being dumb about something)? Thanks! -w

#6 Laura

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 07:31 PM

"add multimedia item to the citation"

It has been common practice on the boards to refer to the Master source as source and to the Source details as citation or citation details.

Since there is now only one copy of each linked media in a Shareable CD, I'm now free to link a media multiple times anywhere I want to. Thanks, Bruce.

IMO, the best place to decide where you want to link media is in a Play database instead of the main database. A consideration is what/how you want Srcapbooks to print.

I have always linked photos of people to the name and fact media to the fact. Then it is right there if I'm in the Edit person screen, and I want to check it.

Now I am linking fact media to the fact, Master source, and working on linking it to the Source detail. I'm putting the media description into the comments for the Master Source and Source detail.

One thing to consider when sharing facts is what to do about the media. The media linked to the shared fact will only show in a scrapbook for the Principal in a Person scrapbook. This can be a problem if your report and/or Scrapbook starts with a Shared person. I am solving it for now by linking the fact media to the name for the shared people I might start a Family Groups Sheet or Narrative report from.

One of the first things I did in RM4 was link tombstone pictures to the cemetery Place.

Laura

#7 lostinbrave

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 08:45 PM

"add multimedia item to the citation"

It has been common practice on the boards to refer to the Master source as source and to the Source details as citation or citation details.

Since there is now only one copy of each linked media in a Shareable CD, I'm now free to link a media multiple times anywhere I want to. Thanks, Bruce.

IMO, the best place to decide where you want to link media is in a Play database instead of the main database. A consideration is what/how you want Srcapbooks to print.

I have always linked photos of people to the name and fact media to the fact. Then it is right there if I'm in the Edit person screen, and I want to check it.

Now I am linking fact media to the fact, Master source, and working on linking it to the Source detail. I'm putting the media description into the comments for the Master Source and Source detail.

One thing to consider when sharing facts is what to do about the media. The media linked to the shared fact will only show in a scrapbook for the Principal in a Person scrapbook. This can be a problem if your report and/or Scrapbook starts with a Shared person. I am solving it for now by linking the fact media to the name for the shared people I might start a Family Groups Sheet or Narrative report from.

One of the first things I did in RM4 was link tombstone pictures to the cemetery Place.

Laura


I know personally I might do it in both places, just so it is always at my fingertips.

#8 waffles

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 12:49 AM

"add multimedia item to the citation"

It has been common practice on the boards to refer to the Master source as source and to the Source details as citation or citation details.

Since there is now only one copy of each linked media in a Shareable CD, I'm now free to link a media multiple times anywhere I want to. Thanks, Bruce.

IMO, the best place to decide where you want to link media is in a Play database instead of the main database. A consideration is what/how you want Srcapbooks to print.

I have always linked photos of people to the name and fact media to the fact. Then it is right there if I'm in the Edit person screen, and I want to check it.

Now I am linking fact media to the fact, Master source, and working on linking it to the Source detail. I'm putting the media description into the comments for the Master Source and Source detail.

One thing to consider when sharing facts is what to do about the media. The media linked to the shared fact will only show in a scrapbook for the Principal in a Person scrapbook. This can be a problem if your report and/or Scrapbook starts with a Shared person. I am solving it for now by linking the fact media to the name for the shared people I might start a Family Groups Sheet or Narrative report fr?om.
One of the first things I did in RM4 was link tombstone pictures to the cemetery Place.

Laura


Thank you very much for the enlightening clarification. So according to Alfred above, "if you add the multimedia item to the citation it is right there, ready to view." Where is "right there, ready to view?" I have to dig six windows deep to view media attached to Source Details (citation) in the person view. Is there quicker way to get there?

All of this information has been a huge help. Thanks again, -w

#9 Laura

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 02:31 AM

The quickest place to view a media file for facts on the Edit person screen is one attached to the fact

If you are already in the Edit Source screen for a fact, it would be quicker to view the media either linked to the Master Source or Source Detail rather than go back to the Edit screen to view the linked media there and then go back to the Edit Source screen to make corrections to the Master source or Source Detail.

If you are in Lists>Source list, [specific Master source], it would be a lot quicker to check media there than leaving the source list to hunt it down to check somewhere else, say the Media Gallery.

Suspose you are in the Source list and need to know if a media is linked to a fact that uses that source for a certain person. You can go to the media for that Master fact, highlight a thumbnail and click on the Tools button. If you choose "Show where this media is used" you get a list of every place that media is linked. For shared facts it shows only the Principal.

The "Show where this media is used" feature can also be accessed in Tools for a highlighted media in the Media Gallery as well as in the Media Album screen.

Laura

#10 Vyger

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 06:59 AM

IMO, the best place to decide where you want to link media is in a Play database instead of the main database. A consideration is what/how you want Srcapbooks to print.

I have always linked photos of people to the name and fact media to the fact. Then it is right there if I'm in the Edit person screen, and I want to check it..............

............One of the first things I did in RM4 was link tombstone pictures to the cemetery Place.

This is good advice, what I had tried to say earlier is that it is not so much where the media is linked, it's where it can easily be seen to exist and correctly reported and output. If it was always obvious where media was attached from the Edit Person screen then I, for one, would be happy with that. If the options to select/unselect the use of that media in various reports and outputs combined with options for how it is used/presented were incorporated within RM then I donít believe this would be a discussion point.

I started attaching media to Places several years ago and I am now working through transferring and adding to those on Place Details. Place Details currently does not show that media is attached but I believe that is an oversight and will be corrected when Bruce gets time.

What I wished for, maybe as far back as RM2, was that when a Place (which has media attached) is used and printed in a Narrative Report then there would be an option to print the media attached to those places in an appendix to the report. The notes or description attached to that Place or Place Details would be printed alongside the photograph. I believe when printing a family history being able to see the place referred to rather than simply reading it's name would greatly add to the quality of the report.

That wish would now apply more appropraitely to Place Details.

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

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#11 waffles

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 07:33 AM

The quickest place to view a media file for facts on the Edit person screen is one attached to the fact

If you are already in the Edit Source screen for a fact, it would be quicker to view the media either linked to the Master Source or Source Detail rather than go back to the Edit screen to view the linked media there and then go back to the Edit Source screen to make corrections to the Master source or Source Detail.

If you are in Lists>Source list, [specific Master source], it would be a lot quicker to check media there than leaving the source list to hunt it down to check somewhere else, say the Media Gallery.

Suspose you are in the Source list and need to know if a media is linked to a fact that uses that source for a certain person. You can go to the media for that Master fact, highlight a thumbnail and click on the Tools button. If you choose "Show where this media is used" you get a list of every place that media is linked. For shared facts it shows only the Principal.

The "Show where this media is used" feature can also be accessed in Tools for a highlighted media in the Media Gallery as well as in the Media Album screen.

Laura


So I guess I've gotten used to some inefficient ways to access specific data, primarily because I spend the majority of my time in "edit person" windows. In order to look at a person's birth certificate, it seems more intuitive to me to go to that person's information first ("edit person") and then navigate to fact->sources->edit->more->source media, rather than initially go to some "master source list" and pick the birth certificate from there. Although it is obvious that the latter is much more efficient.

I am very tempted to attach source documents directly to fact sources (as Vyger) does, because it keeps pertinent data closer together. Also, when generating a scrapbook on a person, fact media is included but source/citation media is not. And for something like a birth certificate, it seems obvious to me that it should be included in a scrapbook by default. Even though this method may be more convenient, it is less accurate from the given database design.

One solution is to add redundancy (lostinbrave), inserting the media in both fact and master source locations. It is trivial to add the document from the gallery or elsewhere, but property fields (caption, description, date, and ref number) all need to be reentered.

I'm really trying to keep simplicity as a goal so others (family) won't get turned off by complicated use, but I may be speaking too soon because I've never looked at the shareable CD function. Also, I have no idea what level of complexity GEDCOM exporting would accommodate. Anyway, that is a bit off-topic.

If I attach a birth certificate to the Master Source media, is there an easy way to link/include that media in a person's scrapbook? If so, I think that would be the best solution for me. Thanks again! -w

#12 Vyger

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:53 AM

I am very tempted to attach source documents directly to fact sources (as Vyger) does, because it keeps pertinent data closer together. Also, when generating a scrapbook on a person, fact media is included but source/citation media is not. And for something like a birth certificate, it seems obvious to me that it should be included in a scrapbook by default. Even though this method may be more convenient, it is less accurate from the given database design.

If I attach a birth certificate to the Master Source media, is there an easy way to link/include that media in a person's scrapbook? If so, I think that would be the best solution for me. Thanks again! -w

Waffles, my post may have been confusing, I don't attach to the Master Source, to me the logical place for a document/certificate attachment would be the Source Details but then I cannot easily see it exists. It's funny how we as users often lean towards the way it works best for us rather than wishing for changes that make it work as it should.

I always attached document scans to the actual Event/Fact as I could easily see they existed and could examine them again if I wanted.

A little off topic but RM is getting a little bad feedback and users refusing to upgrade due to the changes made to Sources and Place Details. The current STANDARD is better than it has ever been IMHO, unfortunately what lacked before was any kind of STANDARD so everyone done their own thing, that means a lot of updating now to bring things into line with RM4. I applaud Bruce & team for the brave move of bringing that standard into genealogy software.

If I could see on the Edit Person screen that I had source media attached and I could use it correctly on all output options then I agree this is probably the logical place for it, unfortunately a few program alterations need to be made to fulfill those criteria.

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

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#13 waffles

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:10 AM

Waffles, my post may have been confusing, I don't attach to the Master Source, to me the logical place for a document/certificate attachment would be the Source Details but then I cannot easily see it exists. It's funny how we as users often lean towards the way it works best for us rather than wishing for changes that make it work as it should.

I always attached document scans to the actual Event/Fact as I could easily see they existed and could examine them again if I wanted.

A little off topic but RM is getting a little bad feedback and users refusing to upgrade due to the changes made to Sources and Place Details. The current STANDARD is better than it has ever been IMHO, unfortunately what lacked before was any kind of STANDARD so everyone done their own thing, that means a lot of updating now to bring things into line with RM4. I applaud Bruce & team for the brave move of bringing that standard into genealogy software.

If I could see on the Edit Person screen that I had source media attached and I could use it correctly on all output options then I agree this is probably the logical place for it, unfortunately a few program alterations need to be made to fulfill those criteria.


My fault, we are on the same page here. I meant "I am very tempted to attach media documents directly to facts (as Vyger) does." Sorry for the confusion. I completely agree with your comments! -w

#14 Vyger

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 06:19 PM

My fault, we are on the same page here. I meant "I am very tempted to attach media documents directly to facts (as Vyger) does." Sorry for the confusion. I completely agree with your comments! -w

No problem, unfortunately we are all on the same page regarding inputing our data in a format that gives us the desired output. I believe in the future this will become less of a problem once programmers (not just Bruce) realise the problem and provide satisfactory solutions.

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

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#15 lostinbrave

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 03:30 PM

My fault, we are on the same page here. I meant "I am very tempted to attach media documents directly to facts (as Vyger) does." Sorry for the confusion. I completely agree with your comments! -w

Like I said earlier I will often link to the source itself, and too the fact on the person.

In a will I would make a source for the will, and make a link there, then I would link it to each person mentioned in the will that is a relative.(I normally skip over any non relatives for obvious reasons)

#16 Laura

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 07:40 PM

Waffles,

The first place I link fact media is to the fact in the Edit person screen as that is the most convienent place to view the media if I'm in the Edit Person screen. And the fact media is included with the Person scrapbook.

We can link a media to every area it can be linked to from the Edit person screen without ever going to the Lists>Master source list or Place list or Lists>Media Gallery.

Name - Highlight the name and choose the media button in the lower right pane.
Family - Highlight the spouse and choose the media button in the lower right pane.
Fact:
Fact - Click on box for media for the fact
Place for fact - Click on icon to the right of the Place box to open Place list and edit the selected place to link media.
Place Details - Click on icon to the right of the Place Details box, edit Place detail to link media.
Fact source, Edit source screen - Master source>More>Source media links media to the Master source. Source Details>More>Detail media links media to the Source Detail.

In the Media Album screen, linking a new media with the Add new media button, automatically adds the media to the Media Gallery.

Every user has to decide where they want media linked for themselves depending on how they want to use it, convienience of access in database, how it's printed in Scrapbooks, and/or aid for reasearch and reasearch trips.

Laura

#17 Vyger

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 08:04 PM

Every user has to decide where they want media linked for themselves depending on how they want to use it, convienience of access in database, how it's printed in Scrapbooks, and/or aid for reasearch and reasearch trips.

Laura, you are quite correct and I link my media to the fact as you do so it is easily seen to exist. I don't think it is a great practice to be deciding where to link media due to possible limitations within the program, probably better to overcome those limitations and provide the correct output.

Although attaching media to facts is easily recognised I was never very keen on a scan of a census or something printing in the middle of my narritive report, altohugh it means a lot of work for me it would be better to print with the sources. The other examples you gave I would see working and printing as below :

1. Name - of course an indididual picture
2. Family - A family picture.
3. Fact - Might almost become redundant providing the existance of other media is immediately obvious.
4. Place Media might now be a scan of an old map showing the boundaries of a township or a City Centre picture just to add interest.
5. Place Details (houses, Churches, cemeteries) should have some option to print at the end of a report in which they were used as a sort of appendix, would add a lot of interest to the report.
6. Although I don't do it at present, Source Documentation or scans should be linked to Source Details. The Source list at the end of any report should have the option to Print Media.

For me there are two main criteria, firstly the existance of the Media is immediately obvious from the Edit Person screen so I can review it if I desire, and secondly all media can be turned on of of for printing in all reports with a bit of control over how it is printed.

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

User of Family Historian 6.2.7, Rootsmagic 7.6.0, Family Tree Maker 2014 & Legacy 7.5

 

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#18 Laura

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:11 PM

Media linked to the Name or Family doesn't necessarily have to be just pictures of people.

The Primary box on the linked media's Properties screen controls whether it is printed in a Narrative report or Family Group Sheet. For the Name, the media checked as Primary is also the picture shown on the main screen.

The Scrapbook box controls if a media that is linked in that place is printed in a Scrapbook.

I could have every media I have pertaining to one person linked to the Name. The photo I want to show on the main screen and print in the Narrative report and Family Group Sheet would be marked as Primary. When you choose a Primary media, RM automatically unmarks every other media's Primary box that is linked to that Name, etc.

I could at the same time have the same media linked to the facts. Uncheck the Scrapbook box in the media linked to the fact and that media would not be printed twice in a Scrapbook for Person.

The Primary and Scrapbook boxes are the fine tuning. The Include media box on a report screen is the Power button on the radio, on/off.

Laura

#19 Vyger

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 11:14 AM

The Primary and Scrapbook boxes are the fine tuning. The Include media box on a report screen is the Power button on the radio, on/off.

I was thinking more about this while travelling and even if Source Media had an Option to print with Sources I would not want ALL to print. I would probably only want Source Media that was in some way contentious or confusing to print the original document so more check boxes would be required.

All I was saying previously was that I, and I am sure many other users, have chosen where to atach their Media for their own reasons of visibility and current output options and that may not always have been the logical location for the actual Media.

It would be a lot of work for me to change it but depending on how RM (and genealogy software) evolves in the future it may be a task that will need to be done

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

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#20 BrianZero

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 09:45 AM

Just happenned on this post
How confusing can this be ?
Should not RM4 developers have stated how this should be addressed ?
Hard to understand why
MASTER RESOURCE has Text / Comments / Media
SOURCE DETAILS has Text / Comments / Media
Are these not essentially the same ?

Should there not also be in RM4 option alongside any input to Fact Source / Media to add info to other areas
[But then again should there have to be more than one place/input for same info ?]
This is especially frustrating for new users - who probably dont always know about alternative locations for same info !
Why should anyone want to add to an already busy workload ? [Software is supposed to help]
Will the new manual clarify this ?
Will it say why the options are there ?

Complication for the sake of it ?
Probably suit some users but not the majority !