Jump to content


Photo

RM4 Standard Edition ??


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 Vyger

Vyger

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3425 posts

Posted 26 July 2009 - 04:36 PM

The RM splash screen shows “Standard Edition” but I was curious as to how many users out there would support an “Advanced Edition” packed with more utilities to help manage large databases, and of course pay some premium for the privilege.

Managing large databases yearns for utilities but for the average user these could be very dangerous and of course would add complexity of RM and make it less user friendly. Come to think of it they might be very dangerous in my hands also. B)

I often wonder if Bruce & team have some sort of “all whistles & bells” version at their disposal and how much support would there be out there for an advanced version with more options and utilities to help manage and correct large files.?

Answers on a postcard... ;)

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

User of Family Historian 6.2.7, Rootsmagic 7.6.2, Family Tree Maker 2014 & Legacy 7.5

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

Root


#2 lostinbrave

lostinbrave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 162 posts

Posted 26 July 2009 - 04:40 PM

The RM splash screen shows “Standard Edition” but I was curious as to how many users out there would support an “Advanced Edition” packed with more utilities to help manage large databases, and of course pay some premium for the privilege.

Managing large databases yearns for utilities but for the average user these could be very dangerous and of course would add complexity of RM and make it less user friendly. Come to think of it they might be very dangerous in my hands also. B)

I often wonder if Bruce & team have some sort of “all whistles & bells” version at their disposal and how much support would there be out there for an advanced version with more options and utilities to help manage and correct large files.?

Answers on a postcard...


Depends on the premium, if it is $10-$40 more then probably yes. But it would need a few things:
Parallel processing so I can use both my cores at once.
Full loading of database into memory, for faster manipulation.
Support for cluster computing(Hey shoot for the stars even if you miss you still hit the Moon)

#3 Laurie Nelson

Laurie Nelson

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts

Posted 26 July 2009 - 09:05 PM

The RM splash screen shows "Standard Edition" but I was curious as to how many users out there would support an "Advanced Edition" packed with more utilities to help manage large databases, and of course pay some premium for the privilege.

Managing large databases yearns for utilities but for the average user these could be very dangerous and of course would add complexity of RM and make it less user friendly. Come to think of it they might be very dangerous in my hands also. B)

I often wonder if Bruce & team have some sort of "all whistles & bells" version at their disposal and how much support would there be out there for an advanced version with more options and utilities to help manage and correct large files.?

Answers on a postcard... ;)

I don't need or want these utilities. RM4 has already gotten too complicated for me.

However, it looks like it's going to be a year before the current version of RM4 has all the bugs swatted and issues resolved. And Bruce still has a manual to write. So maybe you shouldn't push it just yet. I'd just like to get some of the basic stuff fixed, so I can maybe start using RM4 again.
Laurie Nelson

#4 Romer

Romer

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2072 posts

Posted 26 July 2009 - 09:24 PM

It sounds as though the manual is about to go to printer and should be available approximately six weeks out:

http://blog.rootsmag...=1#comment-6331

#5 whomper

whomper

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 242 posts

Posted 26 July 2009 - 10:28 PM

I don't need or want these utilities. RM4 has already gotten too complicated for me.

You should just jump in and start using it! It's only complex when you try to do some new function that you haven't done before! You needn't take advantage of all the bells and whistles...

If you don't try, then any useful experiences you have won't be known by the PTB and the rest of us! While too many cooks spoil the broth, there are never too many diners!

The earlier versions of PAF spawned a number of 3rd-party utilities which were quite useful. PAF became unpopular in my mind when not only more bells and whistles were added, but paint schemes and box sizes and other basic, visual stuff was changed at the same time, and for no obvious good reason. If RM can avoid the changes of the dressings, then improvements shouldn't bother those of us on the lower levels.

I'm not a very advanced user, compared to some of the other users who participate here. I did like the old FO, which is why I transitioned to RM; I could've stayed with the last version of FO and probably have been happy. For instance, some of the visual features of FO were terrific, but were lost when FO became unsupported but "protected" by copywrite and contracts, etc. I miss some of them.

But sometimes I find that making a move is advantageous to me. And for that reason, I suggest you (Laurie) get back into the swing of the RM things and share with us your opinions. Be a part of the solution!

#6 MikeZ

MikeZ

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 279 posts

Posted 27 July 2009 - 10:24 AM

I don't need or want these utilities. RM4 has already gotten too complicated for me.

However, it looks like it's going to be a year before the current version of RM4 has all the bugs swatted and issues resolved. And Bruce still has a manual to write. So maybe you shouldn't push it just yet. I'd just like to get some of the basic stuff fixed, so I can maybe start using RM4 again.

I couldn't have said this any better! At least two of us are willing to say what we think - too much, too soon... :(

And as far as the "being part of the solution..." reponse to Laurie's comment, pure psycho-babble! Sure, shift the responsibility for cleaning-up RM4 on the user, and make them feel guilty if they don't help... <_<

User since Family Origins 2.0, Now using RM 7.5...


#7 Vyger

Vyger

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3425 posts

Posted 27 July 2009 - 10:41 AM

I couldn't have said this any better! At least two of us are willing to say what we think - too much, too soon... :(

And as far as the "being part of the solution..." reponse to Laurie's comment, pure psycho-babble! Sure, shift the responsibility for cleaning-up RM4 on the user, and make them feel guilty if they don't help... <_<

If your signature is still accurate you are missing some nice features in RM4 - IMHO

Still horses for courses, everyone has their preference.

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

User of Family Historian 6.2.7, Rootsmagic 7.6.2, Family Tree Maker 2014 & Legacy 7.5

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

Root


#8 MikeZ

MikeZ

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 279 posts

Posted 27 July 2009 - 11:26 AM

If your signature is still accurate you are missing some nice features in RM4 - IMHO

Still horses for courses, everyone has their preference.

The signature is accurate, and (as I've noted elsewhere in the RM forum) I am aware of many of RM4's features - having been part of the beta testing group.

In my case, a conversion of my RM3 DB to RM4 represents a massive amount of place & source restructuring work that I am unwilling to perform, and even then the RM4 source information display will not afford the utility it presently offers me in RM3.

Add to that the significant problem (IMO) with merging sources (commented about this before here and in a trouble ticket - still unanswered from Mar 28th), and the myriad of bandaid fixes cited thoughout this forum, and for me converting to RM4 is far from an upgrade.

Couple all those issues together, and it forms the basis for my frustration and disappointment over RM4. I really wanted to be able to use it, but it as it presently exists it is not worth the effort... :(

User since Family Origins 2.0, Now using RM 7.5...


#9 Vyger

Vyger

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3425 posts

Posted 27 July 2009 - 01:03 PM

In my case, a conversion of my RM3 DB to RM4 represents a massive amount of place & source restructuring work that I am unwilling to perform, and even then the RM4 source information display will not afford the utility it presently offers me in RM3.


I completely understand your points especially the one above. I suppose I made the delayed transition to RM4 as I knew I would have to someday and also I have no great reporting or output needs at present, just data crunching and RM4 is helping me with that.

I would also hope Bruce & team will build in some utilities to help the transition to the new Place Details field, sources and other differences in RM4. I hope I am not being foolish in believing that he will. :(

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

User of Family Historian 6.2.7, Rootsmagic 7.6.2, Family Tree Maker 2014 & Legacy 7.5

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

Root


#10 MikeZ

MikeZ

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 279 posts

Posted 27 July 2009 - 01:54 PM

I completely understand your points especially the one above. I suppose I made the delayed transition to RM4 as I knew I would have to someday and also I have no great reporting or output needs at present, just data crunching and RM4 is helping me with that.

I would also hope Bruce & team will build in some utilities to help the transition to the new Place Details field, sources and other differences in RM4. I hope I am not being foolish in believing that he will. :(

I appreciate your understanding of my position, and quite honestly (given the issues being revealed almost daily in this forum) I do not see much hope for any such data transfer utility being developed in the forseeable future.

Yet, the existence of such a utility for places & sources is fundamental to my ever using RM4...

User since Family Origins 2.0, Now using RM 7.5...


#11 Ludlow Bay

Ludlow Bay

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 868 posts

Posted 27 July 2009 - 03:22 PM

just data crunching and RM4 is helping me with that.


As another RM4 owner who has not made the transition, what specific features of 4 (that are not in 3) are helpful with "data crunching"?

#12 Vyger

Vyger

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3425 posts

Posted 27 July 2009 - 04:17 PM

As another RM4 owner who has not made the transition, what specific features of 4 (that are not in 3) are helpful with "data crunching"?

For me the biggest one is the new People Screen. You can customize what fields are displayed, sort by any column and more easily find and correct data.

In it's simplest form is is like a spreadsheet format and very useful and I am hopeful it gets further development in the future.

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

User of Family Historian 6.2.7, Rootsmagic 7.6.2, Family Tree Maker 2014 & Legacy 7.5

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

Root


#13 Laura

Laura

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4276 posts

Posted 27 July 2009 - 05:01 PM

Data Crunching?

The Sidebar:
Index - works like finding a person in the list as in RM Explorer. The person is automatically highlighted on the main screen. Does away with having to open RM Explorer and selecting the person.

Family - No matter which main screen you have open, you can see the Spouses & Children of the highlighted person. And change to another member of that family if desired.

Bookmark - easier to use than having the bookmark screen open as in RM4. Click on the Bookmark button and you have the list. Highlight the person and they become the focus on the main screen.

History - the same as Bookmark

Groups - Use Select people search to create a Group of people to work on instead of using Find in RM Explorer or making a report and tiling it side by side with RM. Choose whichever main screen that works best for doing your project. Many of the reports allow you to select the Group to use in the report instead of having to do Select people again, and you can export the Group in a gedcom.

On the Sidebar, if you highlight a name in the sidebar and double click, the Edit person screen opens. You don't have to move to the main screen to open the Edit person screen. And, if you open RM Explorer, the person highlighted in the side bar is highlighted in RM Explorer.

WebSearch:
Great for searching online databases from within RM4. Select your database to search. Use the sidebar features to move from person to person. I usually leave the Automatic search button unchecked as I can move around the main screens, Sidebar and RM Explorer without changing where I am on the online database.

It speeds up online resarch and adding what I found to RM4 tremendously.

Vyger has already mentioned the People's screen. One way I use the People screen is to use a Group as a search component for the People screen and customize the People screen for the facts I want to look at.

There many ways of using the Sidebar features and main screens and RM Explorer together. It all adds up to a great deal of time saved.

No one has to change their database from Free form sources to source template sources, use the fancy sentence structure switches, or use Shared facts.

You do have to get used to the new Media set up, but I've come to really appreciate the Media Gallery, and I love the new Media usage and Properties feature.

RM4 is different from RM3, and it takes some adjustment to get used to new screens and new ways of doing things,

Yes, there are still some bugs and some things I might like to be done differently, and new features to be further developed. That can be said of any new software.

I'm certainly not going to deny myself the use of the new features until RM4 is perfect or tailored to my specific needs.

I wouldn't go back to RM3. It's like trying to work with one hand tied behind my back.

Laura

#14 Vyger

Vyger

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3425 posts

Posted 27 July 2009 - 05:10 PM

Vyger has already mentioned the People's screen. One way I use the People screen is to use a Group as a search component for the People screen and customize the People screen for the facts I want to look at.

Laura, I know we discussed this before and you pointed me towards using the Sidebar more, thanks.

I posted a wish earlier that the People Screen should be contextual. In other words ONLY display what is selected in the Sidebar, for me that would make it complete, well for now anyway ;)

I'm using it at the moment and don't know how I lived without it.

Jackson

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

User of Family Historian 6.2.7, Rootsmagic 7.6.2, Family Tree Maker 2014 & Legacy 7.5

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

Root


#15 Jack

Jack

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 834 posts

Posted 28 July 2009 - 05:30 AM

Data Crunching?

The Sidebar:
Index - works like finding a person in the list as in RM Explorer. The person is automatically highlighted on the main screen. Does away with having to open RM Explorer and selecting the person.


I may have my blinders on a bit tight, but I fail to find any use for the sidebar except as a distraction when I accidentally open it. What can I do there that I can't do with Ctl-F, which incidentally is habit after using it in previous versions of RM?

Jack
Jack

a posteriori

#16 MVS

MVS

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 326 posts

Posted 28 July 2009 - 05:38 AM

Going back to the original question...... I logged a suggestion a few weeks ago that what would be very useful would be a "published" interface that would allow users to get access to the database for reporting or iPhone type "Applet" development.

This would allow the development team to continue to develop the core product but give those users who wanted special things or better reports and data manipulation a way in to satisfy their own needs.

I have a feeling that if this interface was available new features and utilities would be developed in new and exciting ways that would really enhance the overall product and that had not been thought of before.

MVS

#17 Laurie Nelson

Laurie Nelson

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts

Posted 28 July 2009 - 08:16 PM

You should just jump in and start using it! It's only complex when you try to do some new function that you haven't done before! You needn't take advantage of all the bells and whistles...

If you don't try, then any useful experiences you have won't be known by the PTB and the rest of us! While too many cooks spoil the broth, there are never too many diners!

The earlier versions of PAF spawned a number of 3rd-party utilities which were quite useful. PAF became unpopular in my mind when not only more bells and whistles were added, but paint schemes and box sizes and other basic, visual stuff was changed at the same time, and for no obvious good reason. If RM can avoid the changes of the dressings, then improvements shouldn't bother those of us on the lower levels.

But sometimes I find that making a move is advantageous to me. And for that reason, I suggest you (Laurie) get back into the swing of the RM things and share with us your opinions. Be a part of the solution!

I have tried RM4, whomper, and that's why I went back to RM3. I didn't do it lightly, believe me. It took some time to straighten out some things, such as place details, custom facts, lost address list entries, etc.

This is the first time I moved to a major upgrade of FO or RM without waiting at least a couple of months. I only waited a week because I wanted to support the product and I thought it would be easier to enter the large amounts of new data I had to enter in RM4 rather than in RM3. I'm a medium computer user and a medium to advanced user of RM and other programs. However, I was shocked at the number of problems with RM4, in spite of all the beta testing. I continue to be shocked every week as more problems come to light and I continue to be grateful I'm not using it yet.

If you haven't accidentally entered data for a child in a parent's Edit Person screen when you thought you were in the child's Edit Person screen, you are lucky. We had a long discussion about this on the mail list and never could figure out the reason, so Bruce has been unable to duplicate it and fix it. Luckily I usually noticed when this happened. However, I'm still afraid that I missed one or two instances when this first started happening and I had so little info on the father and child with the same name (as frequently happens with naming) that I still might have the wrong data entered. I'm not going to risk that again.

Laura's right about the sources. If I ever go back to RM4, I won't use the new sources because too many people have had problems with them and it's not worth the effort to redo my sources. I still have a lot of sources from FO that have the detailed source info and the text in the same field. I seem to be running into those a lot lately, so I have a lot of those to fix. And I hate the extra steps in entering detailed source info in RM4 anyway.

When I said it was too complicated for me, I didn't mean I couldn't use it--I meant it takes too long to enter data, compared to RM3. It's just not worth the effort.

For Laura and others who want the extra bells and whistles and who are willing to put up with the problems until they're fixed, that's great. But it's not for me--and a lot of others who have emailed me personally that they won't use RM4 yet either.

It's funny you told me to be a part of the solution. If you read the mail list, you'd know I've tried. When I first started using RM4 I submitted a number of bugs to be fixed and requests for improvements. Some of those have been implemented. (It turns out some were already submitted in beta testing, but I had no way to know that until a beta tester told me.) Also I've let Bruce and his support staff know exactly what steps I took when a problem cropped up. Over the years I've helped a lot of people. I only recently started posting in the forums, in hopes that I could help others and they could help me. A lot more users post in the mail list than in the forums.
Laurie Nelson

#18 whomper

whomper

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 242 posts

Posted 28 July 2009 - 09:28 PM

I have tried RM4...

It's hard to know how much any one User has contributed to any of these discussions, given the fractured nature of the Discussion forum. I'm responding to situations where a User has become disappointed to the extent that they seem to want to abandon the program. I guess I'm more supportive, at least until I, too, would get so disappointed. But when that comes, I just quietly leave. I don't feel like I can contribute anything, including my own mistakes, if I just complain. I can't lead here, and I'm not ready to get out of the way.

So I continue to encourage others to stay in the game and contribute solutions and experiences. Repetition should eventually get some attention (e.g., squeeky wheel). Illegitimae non carborundum. I didn't intend to chastise you, just to urge you to stay and participate. How else will Bruce and the PTB get a sense of urgency and priorities??

While I think that there are bells and whistles which aren't necessary, I do understand that others like some (all?) of them, thus they should stay. I then find a way to work around/in spite of them. And I ask for improvements and solutions.

Personally, I hope you stay involved.

#19 Richard Snyder

Richard Snyder

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts

Posted 29 July 2009 - 08:45 AM

The RM splash screen shows “Standard Edition” but I was curious as to how many users out there would support an “Advanced Edition” packed with more utilities to help manage large databases, and of course pay some premium for the privilege.

Managing large databases yearns for utilities but for the average user these could be very dangerous and of course would add complexity of RM and make it less user friendly. Come to think of it they might be very dangerous in my hands also. B)

I often wonder if Bruce & team have some sort of “all whistles & bells” version at their disposal and how much support would there be out there for an advanced version with more options and utilities to help manage and correct large files.?

Answers on a postcard... ;)


Aren't you posting on the wrong forum?
There is a forum for your gripes [way too many] and your own ignorance as to the not-so-advanced KIA's!

If your don't like RootsMagic and Bruce, then buy another program.

We "average users" want this forum to post specific problems we are having so you "experts" can help us solve them.

Richard Snyder :angry:

PS, I'm old enough to be your gbrandpa and perhaps you "nerds" need to grow up!

#20 MikeZ

MikeZ

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 279 posts

Posted 29 July 2009 - 09:12 AM

...I'm old enough to be your gbrandpa and perhaps you "nerds" need to grow up!

Interesting. I may also be "old enough to be Vyger's grandfather (who knows or cares), but I am also considered to be a nerd (diverse definitions apply).

Given that situation, I feel compelled to defend Vyger's post as I found nothing wrong it - he was simply asking a question; and, IMO, in a most courteous manner.

While I might not always agree with some of the forum posts that defend what I consider to be a flawed RM upgrade, I also respect the right of these individuals to have their opinions as long as they don't become personal jabs (hint).

In as much as one might decide to "buy another program", one might also suggest that if one dosen't like a particular topic then "change the channel"... ;)

I've said my piece, and will not engage in any further public discussion involving this reply to Vyger's post. Let's return to civility... :)

User since Family Origins 2.0, Now using RM 7.5...