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#41 kbens0n

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Posted 18 February 2010 - 09:43 PM

That would test whether backup and restore has any effect on the database, such as the old Pack or Reindex utilities. From my own observations of database properties, backup/restore has no effect - it is just a ZIP utility.

That would ensure that both users were starting off from the same basis. The original database user could have done any number of things _since_ sending the backup, that might have an effect _comparatively_ upon gauging speed differences. That was my only point.

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#42 Vyger

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 05:47 AM

I feel sure that some facility to rebuild the indexes has to come about, there are just so many issues that RM is recommending gedcom export and import to resolve and as we know that is still not without problems. So problems like Speed of operation, Duplicate Place Details, Duplicate Media thumbnails, Birth date not appearing in index bar etc. could all be resolved by this one addition.

A robust database should maintain the index files unless some manual deletion of data has taken place and the indexes sghould be rebuilt after any data import so although it would be nice to have the button back I believe there are other database issues that need to be resolved. Either was users do not want to be exporting and importing gedcoms to resolve some underlying programming problem.

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#43 TomH

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:01 AM

Jim sent me his database backup and I have had a bit of a look at it with SQLite. I used its VACUUM and REINDEX functions with a faux RMNOCASE collation. While the INTEGRITY check reported some index errors before REINDEX, I cannot say that I obeserved any difference in performance before and after.

File size: 182MB -> 182MB (from WinXP File properties, Explorer reports 187,198KB -> 186,618KB).
- so sqlite 'packing' made little difference, but then Jim says he does not delete persons that are duplicates, rather he edits the surname to preface it with '1', and unlinks from spouses and parents.

Speed: nothing obvious. Merge > Duplicate Search is very slow on both. The 1st stage, Sorting Names, seems to go reasonably fast (~10s) but 2nd stage, Collecting Names, is a slog. My guess is >45 minutes! My own query that finds and counts duplicate Surname+Givens takes ~3min but is much simpler. Duplicate Search created a file in the same folder as the .rmgc file with the same name and the extension .DUP. Its ~100MB size echoes the high number of duplicates my query found (see below).

Jim ran my version of his database on his computer and was surprised that it seemed faster than his original but was clearly experiencing slower response to keyboard shortcuts than I was, apparently some difference in computer performance. However, after re-opening his original and aborting out of the Merge > Duplicate Search after a few minutes with the progress bar at 5%, on the next re-opening his database was 'faster than ever!'. So there is inconsistent behaviour and some unaccountable change occurring even without adding to the database.

I also played with the cache size and Max_Page_Count (supposedly reserves space) using the SQLite manager to no obvious benefit either for its own queries or for RootsMagic; these properties are probably not propagated from one connection to the other.

If there is any conclusion, so far, it would be that the reindexing and packing features of RM3 and FO may not be so important to RM4; that slow performance for larger databases may well be a design or database engine issue but inconsistent behaviour suggests that there needs to be better control over something yet unidentified.

Below is my detailed properties report:

ValueVariable                                 Remark                                                                                       
  155501People                                   all records in PersonTable                                                                   
       0- Nameless People                        no record in NameTable for that RIN                                                          
   53906- Unresolved Duplicate Names             duplicate Given and Surnames, not flagged as "Not a Problem"                                 
       0- Resolved* Duplicate Names              flagged as "Not a Problem" - flags lost on transfer                                          
      61- Unresolved Duplicates with Media Links links lost on merge                                                                          
   72379Families                                 all records in FamilyTable                                                                   
  148662Events                                   all records of EventTable                                                                    
       0- Orphaned Events                        events for which no person or family match in respective tables                              
     187Alternate names                          all records in NameTable where IsPrimary=0                                                   
       0- Orphaned Alternate names*              no Primary name record found                                                                 
    5696Total Places                             all records in PlaceTable incl Places and Place Details (Sites)                              
     139- System Places                          system supplied Places: LDS Temples                                                          
    5554- User Places                            user defined Places excl Sites                                                               
       1-- Unused User Places*                   not used by EventTable, will be dropped in a transfer                                        
       3-- User Place Details                    user defined Sites                                                                           
       0--- Used, having Place Detail Notes*     Site Notes will be lost in a transfer                                                        
       2--- Unused Place Details*                Sites will be lost in a transfer                                                             
    1641Total Sources                            all records from SourceTable                                                                 
      22- Unused Sources*                        SourceTable records unused by CitationTable                                                  
  248341Total Citations                          all records from CitationTable                                                               
     108- Duplicate Citations                    identical in most respects, cluttering reports                                               
       0- Sourceless Citations*                  no SourceTable record for this CitationTable record                                          
       0- Headless Citations*                    CitationTable records for which no Person, Event, Family, AltName found; cleaned on transfer 
      21Repositories                             all records from AddressTable of type Repository                                             
      24To- do tasks                             all records from ResearchTable                                                               
    1650Multimedia items                         all records from MultimediaTable                                                             
      31- lacking thumbnail                      probably an imported reference to an image file that has yet to be found                     
    1663Multimedia links                         all records from MediaLinkTable                                                              
      15- with Date & Description*               if a record has both, the Description is lost in a transfer                                  
     320Addresses                                all records from AddressTable of type Address                                                
       0- blank names                            Name field of AddressTable record is blank                                                   
       1Correspondence                           all records from ResearchTable of type Correspondence                                        
        * NOT TRANSFERABLE                       via GEDCOM or Drag&Drop to another RM database                                               

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#44 Vyger

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:11 AM

Good work Tom, very interesting although a little disappointing that there may not be a simple fix to the speed issues.

Does your eradicate other problems like duplicate Place Details, Media thumbnails, Birth date not appearing in index sidebar etc? - I would expect it should.

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#45 TomH

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 10:39 AM

Speed: nothing obvious. Merge > Duplicate Search is very slow on both. The 1st stage, Sorting Names, seems to go reasonably fast (~10s) but 2nd stage, Collecting Names, is a slog. My guess is >45 minutes! My own query that finds and counts duplicate Surname+Givens takes ~3min but is much simpler. Duplicate Search created a file in the same folder as the .rmgc file with the same name and the extension .DUP. Its ~124MB size echoes the high number of duplicates my query found

While my query of Jim's database reported almost 54000 duplicate names, RM4's DUP file, produced by Tools > Merge > Duplicate Search, lists almost 2,000,000 possible duplicate pairings, which is why the file is so large (124MB), and slow. It takes my computer some 20-25 second to go through the Sorting Names stage (Jim said his took on the order of a minute) and I think mine took around 45 minutes to complete the Collecting Duplicates (Jim closed out due to lack of time).

The DupTable contains only the fields ID1, ID2 (the pairings of RINs of 'duplicate' persons, Merged (a flag that triggers the Merged indicator in the Merge Duplicate Records dialog), and Score, along with three indexes on the three possible combos of ID1 and ID2.

Merging a pair from this list took several seconds. Marking as Not a Problem was faster at approximately 1 second but inconsistent - disk access occurred with each mark. The lack of any on-screen indicator that a pair had been so marked meant that I lost my place if I went from repeatedly doing Alt-N to mark down through the list and then used the mouse to jump back to check. From that point forward, I had no idea if I was unmarking pairs that had been previously marked or jumped forward too far and had missed marking some pairs. Navigation through the list was very sporadic and unpredictable similar to that described below but with delays of perhaps 2s.

Tools > Merge > View 'Not Duplicates' List navigation is very clunky. Paging through it sometimes takes 4 seconds to fetch the next page of pairs for the first time but may be immediate if retracing past steps. Similar jerky effect on the scroll bar and down arrow going forward the first time, smooth going back and forward the second.

The DUPs database is not re-usable from within RM4. The next time you run Tools > Merge > Duplicate Search Merge, it is emptied and re-filled. If you cancel the DSM during the Sorting Names stage, RM4 reports a 'SQLite Error 1 - SQL logic error or missing database'. After sending RootsMagic the error report, the progress bar and Cancel button are frozen but the window can be closed. An empty DUP file and associated SQLite journal file are left behind. Re-starting Duplicate Search Merge results in another error: 'Cannot create file D:\.......'. Unfortunately, the window is not wide enough to report what the filename is but we can guess it's the DUP file. Try to delete and Windows reports it cannot because the file is in use by another program, so close the RM database. Still in use, so close RM4. Now it's deletable.

After deleting RMdatabasename.DUP, re-open RM4 and run Duplicate Search Merge. It runs without error. I Cancel after completion of the 'Sorting Names' stage and part way into 'Collecting Duplicates'. The DUP datafile is back to the same size as the one that had been allowed to get to full completion but the Scoring looks very different. My guess is that the two stages ought to be renamed 'Sorting and Collecting Duplicates' followed by 'Scoring Duplicates'. The good news is that the pairs and all their info are visible in the Merge Duplicate Records dialog and I think it would be safe to proceed to use while ignoring the scoring, e.g., to mark people as 'Not a Problem' (although getting through 2million pairs by hand seems a daunting, RSI prone task). It would be desirable to have the option of marking all pairs with a score below some value as 'Not a Problem' so that this utility might be more useful going forward. However, that would probably result in 2million records being added to the ExclusionTable inside the RM database with other potential side effects.

Sorry if this is too much detail for most - it's the beginning of a report to Support...

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
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#46 TomH

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 10:40 AM

Good work Tom, very interesting although a little disappointing that there may not be a simple fix to the speed issues.

Does your eradicate other problems like duplicate Place Details, Media thumbnails, Birth date not appearing in index sidebar etc? - I would expect it should.

I don't know. Can you provide me with a database with these problems? PM for exchange of email addresses.

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#47 TomH

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 05:35 PM

After deleting RMdatabasename.DUP, re-open RM4 and run Duplicate Search Merge. It runs without error. I Cancel after completion of the 'Sorting Names' stage and part way into 'Collecting Duplicates'. The DUP datafile is back to the same size as the one that had been allowed to get to full completion but the Scoring looks very different. My guess is that the two stages ought to be renamed 'Sorting and Collecting Duplicates' followed by 'Scoring Duplicates'. The good news is that the pairs and all their info are visible in the Merge Duplicate Records dialog and I think it would be safe to proceed to use while ignoring the scoring, e.g., to mark people as 'Not a Problem' (although getting through 2million pairs by hand seems a daunting, RSI prone task). It would be desirable to have the option of marking all pairs with a score below some value as 'Not a Problem' so that this utility might be more useful going forward. However, that would probably result in 2million records being added to the ExclusionTable inside the RM database with other potential side effects.

I think I erred above in saying that the DUP file is at full size at the transition between Sorting Names and Collecting Duplicates. When I tried it again, being a bit quicker in hitting cancel, it was only partially filled. So maybe the two stages are more accurately described as "Sorting Names", "Collecting and Scoring Duplicates" or maybe there are three stages, "Scoring" being the last of the three.

Using SQLite, I transferred all the duplicate pairings from the DUP file to JimB's RM database ExclusionTable, flagged as "Not a Problem". Now that table has nearly 2million records and the RM database file grew from 182MB to 253MB. Duplicate Search Merge was no faster at getting to the Merge screen but there were no more potential pairings to merge. The View 'Not Duplicates' List was slow to display as before (~4s) and navigation through it not obviously worse.

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#48 TomH

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 08:32 AM

I've developed a SQLite query 'DuplicateNameSearch' that does in 4.5 minutes* or so what RM4 does in 45 minutes on JimB's database! Well, it's not exactly the same but, in principle, it searches the database and returns duplicate name pairs with a weighted scoring of the match using the criteria of the proximity of birth and death years and names of parents. Other criteria could be added at the cost of increased complexity, e.g., birth place. Neither tool is terribly effective at sussing out potential duplicates - mine may be too narrow a filter while RM4 presents nearly 2 million to consider! Fuzzy logic is probably an avenue that might be useful.Anyway, what I think this says is that there is no reason for Duplicate Search Merge to be so ponderously slow. No reason to return such vast numbers of pairings to consider. No reason to have to mark so many as 'Not a Problem' and thus mushrooming the size of the main database just to prevent DSM's wide net from catching them again. I'm certain that the DSM query design is flawed and that it should execute up to 10x* faster on a large dataset.

*Edited - speed slowed when I corrected logic that was skipping a majority of the possible pairings, but still runs 10x faster while returning the same set of pairs.

Edited by TomH, 22 February 2010 - 10:43 PM.

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#49 TomH

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:33 PM

I'm certain that the DSM query design is flawed and that it should execute up to 10x* faster on a large dataset.

Finally got to posting Ticket Number 0BB-1321D7DC-D670 re this issue.

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#50 Vyger

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:37 PM

Finally got to posting Ticket Number 0BB-1321D7DC-D670 re this issue.

Good man Tom, I think my "check for updates" button is broken.... :D ...I will continue to wait.

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

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#51 isis

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 01:56 PM

I've retried RM4 with my very large database & its slow straight from the off. , approx 30mins to merge 2 people, it hangs when you click, select the 2nd person & takes 30 mins for the box with the list of names to come back up

Before on the previous version of RM4 , it ran fast & smootlhly for the 1st 100 merges then it went back to the slow speed again, so it wouldnt be easy to tell just from a fresh import & a couple of merges, you need to run it for a good while

If you want to try out a large gedcom in it to see if the problem is replicated , you can try the one containing the royal lines for 1,000's of years, (i have already imported this one too) at the gedcom database http://www.genealogy...om/gedr2090.htm . . My backup file for either RM3/4 is 250mb

I also find that even after merging in RM3, there are still some people in the database, that show duplicate parents in manual merge window, with ie 1 individual showing 2 wives , with the same names & exactly the same ID no & both women have the same children. Even when exported to RM4 i think these occasional duplicates still showed up.

isis

#52 Vyger

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 04:03 PM

I also find that even after merging in RM3, there are still some people in the database, that show duplicate parents in manual merge window, with ie 1 individual showing 2 wives , with the same names & exactly the same ID no & both women have the same children. Even when exported to RM4 i think these occasional duplicates still showed up.

I have some concerns about merge and there are some problems with ShareMerge creating additional citations etc.

I have been bringing together many small databases in expectation of Dynamic Groups being introduced in the not too distant future and have been surprised with the number of duplicate persons after running the automerges. I exported a sample to look at the _UID of each person expecting RM to be to blame but the _UID's were all different. Thinking about my past practices I then realised that when I dragged and dropped John Doe, selected "Everyone in the same Tree", and confirmed that John Doe was the same person I was dropping onto, then John Doe maintained the same _UID but everyone else in his tree got a new _UID. That is currently my suspicion and I believe it will prove to be true.

When you stated the "exactly the same ID" were you referring to the _UID in the gedcom file or Ref No?, if you are not sure export the two individuals in question and open the gedcom file in Notepad as a text file, at the start of each person you will see a line like "1 _UID 94701BD8919CF543A5A1DFCE4000686E65BC", that it the Unique Person ID and if they are both the same I believe RM will merge regardless of other facts.

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

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#53 isis

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 06:13 PM

I have some concerns about merge and there are some problems with ShareMerge creating additional citations etc.

I have been bringing together many small databases in expectation of Dynamic Groups being introduced in the not too distant future and have been surprised with the number of duplicate persons after running the automerges. I exported a sample to look at the _UID of each person expecting RM to be to blame but the _UID's were all different. Thinking about my past practices I then realised that when I dragged and dropped John Doe, selected "Everyone in the same Tree", and confirmed that John Doe was the same person I was dropping onto, then John Doe maintained the same _UID but everyone else in his tree got a new _UID. That is currently my suspicion and I believe it will prove to be true.

When you stated the "exactly the same ID" were you referring to the _UID in the gedcom file or Ref No?, if you are not sure export the two individuals in question and open the gedcom file in Notepad as a text file, at the start of each person you will see a line like "1 _UID 94701BD8919CF543A5A1DFCE4000686E65BC", that it the Unique Person ID and if they are both the same I believe RM will merge regardless of other facts.


Yes I mean the UID number that Rootsmagic gives every person in the database, not any user generated reference. The number that shows next to the persons name in manual duplicate merge. If 2 people have the same RM number you cant merge them into 1 because ts the same person

Also , backups take just under a minute in RM4 even with 1,700,000 people, but it takes about 30mins-1hr to backup the same size gedcom in RM3. It takes a few hours to import the gedcom into either RM3 or RM4
Its just the manual merge , where you merge 2 people which is excruciatingly slow ie 30 mins per person, when you click to go back to the main list of people. I havent tried the automatic duplicate merge search as going by the manual merge it will take hours &/or it will crash & I dont want to corrupt this large gedcom

Try importing these gedcoms into a database, then try manually merging them in RM4, that will give some idea of our problem
http://www.genealogy...om/gedr6217.htm
http://www.genealogy...om/gedr2090.htm
http://www.genealogy...om/gedr6472.htm
http://www.genealogy...om/gedr6001.htm
http://www.genealogy...om/gedr6472.htm
http://www.genealogy...om/gedr6463.htm

This will make a comparable large gedcom for testing

#54 Vyger

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 07:06 PM

Yes I mean the UID number that Rootsmagic gives every person in the database, not any user generated reference. The number that shows next to the persons name in manual duplicate merge. If 2 people have the same RM number you cant merge them into 1 because ts the same person

I was not dismissing the slowness you describe and I am well aware of it on manual merge as I am currently merging within a large database although not as large as 1,700,000 yet!. I can only hope that something is being worked on this front and that we as users do not just fall into accepting the current speed of operation.

Two persons with the same _UID will automatically merge when you use ShareMerge, that is what ShareMerge was intended to do so I would suggest you try it.

I have been working my database within the gedcom using my own scripts and most of the scripts I have run complete in less than 10 seconds. My hope is that as Bruce & Team mature with SQL they extract much more speed of operation for RM.

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

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#55 Vyger

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 09:42 AM

Last night I was using the Duplicate Search Merge feature and moving happily from one possible match to the next in about 1 second. Happy days, I thought, RM have fixed this although I don't remember reading about it.

Not the case, today this feature is as painfully slow as it ever was although I am now worried about what type of merging RM was doing so quickly last night and totally confused as to the difference in performance. I tried 4 different computers today with different builds and operating systems and none performed at a speed you would expect bearing in mind the processing involved.

You can read the results and times here and I can only hope someday soon the inherent slow processing operations within RM4 can be finally overcome. :(

http://www.vyger.co....cate-merge.html

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

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#56 TomH

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 12:35 PM

I developed a SQLite query Duplicate Name Search that lists duplicate name pairs with a weighted score indicating the degree of match similar to RootsMagic 4's Duplicate Search Merge tool. On a large database, it produced useful results in 4.5 minutes compared to 45 minutes for RM4 at whatever version it was on 23 Feb 2010. It operates with fixed settings similar to DSM's default settings, e.g. Birth Years within 2 years of each other. In use, one would run the query to produce a report and from its list carry out Manual Merge in RootsMagic. What it demonstrates is that there could have been a ten-fold increase in the speed of RM4's search if its query design became the same as mine. Whether that has happened since then is unknown. I'll have to re-test to confirm.

What seems to be happening in your case, Jackson, is that the search is re-done after a merge. (I'm assuming that it took about three minutes of searching and processing to arrive at the first screen of suspected duplicates.)

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#57 Vyger

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 06:00 AM

This is weird, there was a rather long winded post here which deserved a considered reply, but I decided to have breakfast first the then respond, now it's not there. Was I dreaming or did someone else see it? :blink: I know it was on this thread, or is there a big brother thing going on? <_<

What seems to be happening in your case, Jackson, is that the search is re-done after a merge. (I'm assuming that it took about three minutes of searching and processing to arrive at the first screen of suspected duplicates.)

Tom, I'm not sure what is going on in the background only those at RM know what processing is supposed to happen, without being able to step into or monitor the process it will remain a mystery to me.

The specific file I refer to is one where I have merged most gedcoms into one file and there are a lot of duplication issues that will not help processing times. Renee has indicated that those duplication issues in Sources and Citations and possibly Notes are being looked at so we will watch this space.

Duplication withstanding, RM4, at it's best, still runs this process much slower than RM3 and the time delay can not possible be warranted by the processing involved. IMO

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

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#58 mapleleaf

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 07:26 AM

This is weird, there was a rather long winded post here which deserved a considered reply, but I decided to have breakfast first the then respond, now it's not there. Was I dreaming or did someone else see it? :blink: I know it was on this thread, or is there a big brother thing going on? <_<


I saw the post by John James and saved it. BB did remove it, it seems. :blink: There was no bad language in it, so I can't figure out why it was removed.
~ Debbie

#59 Vyger

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 08:25 AM

I saw the post by John James and saved it. BB did remove it, it seems. :blink: There was no bad language in it, so I can't figure out why it was removed.

Hmmmm, I'm confused, I don't know what is real anymore, did anyone watch The Prisioner :o

I was about to reply to the post by John James, but since it was not a quicky I decided to have breakfast first, when I returned it was too late. <_<

We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

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#60 Laura

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 12:48 PM

Renee, how do you delete you own message? I've never found out how if it is possible.

Thanks, Laura