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#1 Jeff Jahn

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:56 PM

How is the place list suppose to work? Their 3 areas in it. The Place: Standardized: & Addrev. I was assuming we could enter the way we wanted it to appear in the place but then used the standard in standardized but that doesnt seem to work in the map. For example if i wanted to list the place as Kittery, York County, Maine, United States and put Kittery, York, Maine, USA in the Standardized that the map would then go to Kittery Maine, Instead it goes to York, Maine. Also was hoping let say that if I put the Hospital name in the description of the birth fact that we could list the place list by description, Place but doesnt seem you can do that.

#2 kbens0n

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 02:13 AM

These are the Event Place Types:

PLACE: The ORIGINAL entry - as you entered the place name

STANDARDIZED: If you choose the GEOCODE option - this field is filled in by RM if the PLACE: (that you entered above) matches with a place in the 3.5 million name place database included with RootsMagic. When RootsMagic finds a match, it then adds the STANDARD place name as well as the latitude and longitude of the place to the place in the database so it can be plotted on a map.

ABBREV: This is where you can enter a SHORT version of the Place name that you may then use in certain reporting instances.

The above three could then be used "selectively" in the Sentence Template Language by referring to them as

Place:Original
Place:Standard
Place:Short

---
--- "GENEALOGY, n. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." - Ambrose Bierce
--- "The trouble ain't what people don't know, it's what they know that ain't so." - Josh Billings
---Ô¿Ô---
K e V i N


#3 Jeff Jahn

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 06:23 AM

QUOTE(kbens0n @ Mar 12 2009, 03:13 AM) View Post

These are the Event Place Types:

PLACE: The ORIGINAL entry - as you entered the place name

STANDARDIZED: If you choose the GEOCODE option - this field is filled in by RM if the PLACE: (that you entered above) matches with a place in the 3.5 million name place database included with RootsMagic. When RootsMagic finds a match, it then adds the STANDARD place name as well as the latitude and longitude of the place to the place in the database so it can be plotted on a map.

ABBREV: This is where you can enter a SHORT version of the Place name that you may then use in certain reporting instances.

The above three could then be used "selectively" in the Sentence Template Language by referring to them as

Place:Original
Place:Standard
Place:Short


What I thought then but alas it doesnt work in all cases even if a match is found for the standard. A example is Springfield, Brown County, Minnesota, United States for original. The standard is then found of Springfield, Brown, Minnesota, USA. with lat and long. When you go to map it cant find it. It appears to me that Live Search is still using the original location enter and ignores the stardard or lat. long. numbers. The idea was for me that if i wanted for example to include a cemetery name and then enter the lat. & long. numbers for it that it would show it when you map it, but right now doesnt appear it will work that way to me.


#4 Nettie

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 07:50 AM

QUOTE(Jeff Jahn @ Mar 12 2009, 07:23 AM) View Post

What I thought then but alas it doesnt work in all cases even if a match is found for the standard. A example is Springfield, Brown County, Minnesota, United States for original.



I agree it does not work, did the GEOcode for Walnut Grove, Redwood County, Minnesota and it went to Wabasso, MN about 40 miles NE of Walnut Grove in Redwood County
Live Search Geo Coordinates for Walnut Grove are N44 13.23.02 W95 28.9.01 mad.gif

Walnut Grove is N44 13.38 and W. 95. 28. 57 smile.gif Wabasso is N44 23.9 W 95 15. 2 Springfield just east of Walnut, coordinates should be N44 14.3' W94 58.4 smile.gif

I know Bruce is reading these, so maybe they can get this fixed. I know I turned this in on the beta testing. Apparently it did not get caught blink.gif ...........................

Genealogy:
"I work on genealogy only on days that end in "Y"." [Grin!!!]
from www.GenealogyDaily.com.
"Documentation....The hardest part of genealogy"
"Genealogy is like Hide & Seek: They Hide & I Seek!"
" Genealogists: People helping people.....that's what it's all about!"
from http://www.rootsweb....nry/gentags.htm
Using FO and RM since FO2.0 


#5 kbens0n

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 07:52 AM

QUOTE(Jeff Jahn @ Mar 12 2009, 08:23 AM) View Post

It appears to me that Live Search is still using the original location enter and ignores the stardard or lat. long. numbers. The idea was for me that if i wanted for example to include a cemetery name and then enter the lat. & long. numbers for it that it would show it when you map it, but right now doesnt appear it will work that way to me.

Actually, I don't believe that Live Search works with any Place name that also has a County name entered unless that county name has a space and the word 'County' as a part of what is between commas. It will instead look for that singular word representing the County name as if it were the desired location to map.
When the addition of a landmark is added it becomes even wierder how it works:

Try my Examples directly at Live Search (to see what I mean):

-Acworth, Sullivan County, New Hampshire WILL be mapped (note addition of 'County')
-Acworth, Sullivan, New Hampshire, United States WILL be mapped (note addition of Country)
-Acworth, Sullivan County, New Hampshire, United States WILL be mapped (note addition of 'County' & Country)
-Acworth, Sullivan, New Hampshire WILL NOT be mapped (Sullivan, New Hampshire WILL ...if one exists to be mapped) (note omission of 'County')

-Acworth, Acworth Elementary School, Sullivan County, New Hampshire WILL be mapped
-Acworth, Acworth Elementary School, Sullivan County, New Hampshire, United States WILL NOT be mapped ...but MAY still be recognized as a valid landmark (in the left pane) (note addition of Country)

Hope this helps (it doesn't look like the program itself, RM's Place Finder or Live Search are on the same page when it comes to conventions.) sad.gif

---
--- "GENEALOGY, n. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." - Ambrose Bierce
--- "The trouble ain't what people don't know, it's what they know that ain't so." - Josh Billings
---Ô¿Ô---
K e V i N


#6 Alfred

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 07:56 AM

The Microsoft map does not even look at the coordinates.
I don't know that it even has them coded into the program.
I tried to find a way to enter them to find a place and failed.
Of course, I have failed at a lot of things that I have tried. sad.gif
Alfred

#7 Nettie

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 08:03 AM

QUOTE(Alfred @ Mar 12 2009, 08:56 AM) View Post

The Microsoft map does not even look at the coordinates.
I don't know that it even has them coded into the program.
I tried to find a way to enter them to find a place and failed.
Of course, I have failed at a lot of things that I have tried. sad.gif



I tried that also and it didn't work in the Microsoft map. mad.gif I too thought Place names and RM4 would work together???????????????

Genealogy:
"I work on genealogy only on days that end in "Y"." [Grin!!!]
from www.GenealogyDaily.com.
"Documentation....The hardest part of genealogy"
"Genealogy is like Hide & Seek: They Hide & I Seek!"
" Genealogists: People helping people.....that's what it's all about!"
from http://www.rootsweb....nry/gentags.htm
Using FO and RM since FO2.0 


#8 JohnG

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 10:24 AM

I noticed, when editing my place list entries in RM4 Beta and selecting the geocode button, that quite a few previously entered Lat. & Lon. values were changed. The original values came from the place list associated with RM3. I thought this might have been a finessing because there was only a sec. or two difference on the ones I caught. From reading this thread, it seems there may be more involved than just finessing.
JohnG

#9 Romer

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 11:01 AM

Am I understanding correctly that perhaps the following two issues may be at play:

- Live Search Maps is having trouble using the City, County, State, Country format to find an accurate location in a number of cases. (I haven't heard about or tried any non-USA equivalents as of yet.)

- Coordinates that have been entered in RM, either from the place list database or manually, are not being used by Live Search Maps.

I've read that Google Maps is much more reliable on that first count, so it may be a Live Search Maps issue not allowing accurate data to be obtained based on RM data entry.

On the second point, perhaps a checkbox could be added for each place to allow coordinates that have been entered to be used as an override when mapping. I just went to http://live.maps.com and tried to see if I the entry of coordinates would be recognized. I copied the latitude and longitude from a particular place list item and pasted them into the search box, separating the two by a comma, and seemed to get the desired result when I then hit enter.

#10 JohnG

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 11:05 AM

Unless there is a legal or contractual reason preventing this, I would like to see an option to use Google maps.
JohnG

#11 Romer

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 11:21 AM

QUOTE(JohnG @ Mar 12 2009, 11:24 AM) View Post

I noticed, when editing my place list entries in RM4 Beta and selecting the geocode button, that quite a few previously entered Lat. & Lon. values were changed. The original values came from the place list associated with RM3. I thought this might have been a finessing because there was only a sec. or two difference on the ones I caught. From reading this thread, it seems there may be more involved than just finessing.

I'd be interested in knowing the answer, myself, but am not sure that one can yet necessarily conclude that the RM3 place list coordinates and those of the new RM4 place database are inconsistent other than due to finessing.

It looks as though one can more clearly state at this point, however, that the RM3 and RM4 place list coordinates are sometimes inconsistent with Live Search Maps' coordinate interpretation of the way in which a place has been named.

#12 kbens0n

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 12:48 PM

It CAN be done according to the HELP for Live Search Maps:
http://help.live.com...a...d&query=qaf
Search for the word 'latitude' without quotes and then click link named <Build Your Own URL>

QUOTE
Customize your link to display specific search results, driving directions, or items in a collection (A group of map pushpins, items, or search results that you create and save online.) .

Start with the base URL (Uniform Resource Locator. The unique address for a file that is accessible on the Internet.) for Live Maps, and then use parameters (A value appended to a URL that lets you pass specific information from your browser to a server. A parameter begins with a question mark and takes the form ?parameter=value.) to specify your location and define options such as zoom level, map view, search panels, and more.

Start with the base address.
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx

Add a question mark (?).
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?

Add the first parameter that you want to use, and then set the value of the parameter by using an equal sign (=).
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2

The different available parameters are described in the tables below.
Add the other parameters that you want to use, separating each parameter with an ampersand (&).
http://maps.live.com...px?v=2&yp.gouda

Available parameters
Add parameters to your URL to customize what others see when they click your link.

General map view parameters

Parameter Definition Example Details

v Version v=2 Defines the version of the URL API (Application Programming Interface. The language used by an application program to communicate with a computer's operating system.) . If you use this parameter, you should always assign it a value of 2. If you omit this parameter, the latest version of the API is used by default.

mkt Market mkt=en-us Defines the market for your URL using universal two-letter language codes and two-letter ISO (International Organization for Standardization) country codes separated by a hyphen.

cp Center point cp=47.677797~-122.122013 Defines where the center of the map should be. Use the following format for the cp parameter:

Latitude~Longitude

Both values must be expressed in decimal degrees.


ETC.

---
--- "GENEALOGY, n. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." - Ambrose Bierce
--- "The trouble ain't what people don't know, it's what they know that ain't so." - Josh Billings
---Ô¿Ô---
K e V i N


#13 Don Newcomb

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 09:12 AM

BTW, I never liked the format "Acworth, Sullivan, New Hampshire". Sullivan what? In common usage one always adds "County" or "Co." to the name of a county (parish in Louisiana). I don't know who made the decision to drop the "County" but it was just wrong.

#14 Romer

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:10 AM

I agree with you, Don -- adding the word, "County", to one's data removes any possible ambiguity.

#15 kbens0n

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:11 AM

QUOTE(Don Newcomb @ Mar 14 2009, 11:12 AM) View Post

BTW, I never liked the format "Acworth, Sullivan, New Hampshire". Sullivan what? In common usage one always adds "County" or "Co." to the name of a county (parish in Louisiana). I don't know who made the decision to drop the "County" but it was just wrong.

I agree and without standardization among software, online services and other search facilities... it's an impediment, for sure! mad.gif

And I thought this one was interesting (not commonly used) with the landmark being the second level:

Acworth, Acworth Elementary School, Sullivan County, New Hampshire WILL be mapped

---
--- "GENEALOGY, n. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." - Ambrose Bierce
--- "The trouble ain't what people don't know, it's what they know that ain't so." - Josh Billings
---Ô¿Ô---
K e V i N


#16 joka

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 11:36 AM

QUOTE(Don Newcomb @ Mar 14 2009, 03:12 PM) View Post

BTW, I never liked the format "Acworth, Sullivan, New Hampshire". Sullivan what? In common usage one always adds "County" or "Co." to the name of a county (parish in Louisiana). I don't know who made the decision to drop the "County" but it was just wrong.


It might have something to do with UK usage when County is never used as an appellation e.g. not Cumberland County just Cumberland. When using RM4 I have found that a number of my old RM3 entries are recognised by geocoding but others are not and I am sometimes left with a high aerial shot of Cumberland County in the US rather than Cumberland in England.

The sensible solution would be to use County in the US where it is standard usage and leave the present approach where it is not, as in the UK


#17 RMUKfan

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 11:51 AM

QUOTE(joka @ Mar 14 2009, 11:36 AM) View Post

It might have something to do with UK usage when County is never used as an appellation e.g. not Cumberland County just Cumberland. When using RM4 I have found that a number of my old RM3 entries are recognised by geocoding but others are not and I am sometimes left with a high aerial shot of Cumberland County in the US rather than Cumberland in England.

The sensible solution would be to use County in the US where it is standard usage and leave the present approach where it is not, as in the UK

Yes, you certainly cannot have Derbyshire County in the UK it is just Derbyshire.

I think that I have found a problem though with Geocode unless it is supposed to work like this: If you go into Place List and just want to Edit one place and update it using Geocode then the button will not work.

Similarly, if you say assign a Geocode to a place wrongly, e.g. Isle of Wight, USA instead of Isle of Wight, England, United Kindom then it appears impossible to change it.

Not sure what I am doing wrong here.

#18 Glenn

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 03:35 PM

I always thought that "Derbyshire County" was the equivalent of a double negative in that "Shire" in the UK was the same as "County" in the US; therefore we wouldn't say "Derbycounty County".

If we're going to ask "Sullivan what?", why not "Acworth what?" or "New Hampshire what?"

With the new field in V4, what happens when you move "Acworth Elementary School" from place to place description? Do you still get your correct coordinates?

Think Green -- Soon it's Spring and Happy St. Patricks Day

Glenn


BTW, since I have my place names in City, County, State format, would there be any easy way to insert the word "County" in the second level? If I don't know the city or county, I use square brackets "[ ]" -- [City], [County] Iowa For places in the UK, it's [City], Worcestershire, ENGLAND or Tenbury, Worcestershire, ENGLAND




Good real estate may be based on location, location, location;
but
good sources are based on citation, citation, citation!


Glenn


#19 kbens0n

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 01:37 AM

QUOTE(RMUKfan @ Mar 14 2009, 01:51 PM) View Post

Yes, you certainly cannot have Derbyshire County in the UK it is just Derbyshire.
I think that I have found a problem though with Geocode unless it is supposed to work like this: If you go into Place List and just want to Edit one place and update it using Geocode then the button will not work.
If pressing the <Geocode> button does not appear to be doing anything... that is an indication that the Place Name you have entered is NOT being found in RM's Place Name database. You can observe how it is "supposed" to work by adding a new "valid" place such as my example above (Acworth, Sullivan, New Hampshire) and then pressing the <Geocode> button. It will automatically fill in the blanks wink.gif
QUOTE(RMUKfan @ Mar 14 2009, 01:51 PM) View Post

Similarly, if you say assign a Geocode to a place wrongly, e.g. Isle of Wight, USA instead of Isle of Wight, England, United Kindom then it appears impossible to change it.
Isle Of Wight, USA geocodes to Isle of Wight, Isle of Wight, Virginia, United States and if you wanted to change it... you would go into the Place List, Highlight that Place name, Click <Edit> button, fill the Place field with the intended replacement (Isle of Wight, England, United Kingdom), press <Geocode> button and voila! SAVE wink.gif

P.S. hopefully you weren't entering it as you did here ( Kingdom is missing the 'g' wink.gif ) or that would ALSO "appear" as if no change was possible.

---
--- "GENEALOGY, n. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." - Ambrose Bierce
--- "The trouble ain't what people don't know, it's what they know that ain't so." - Josh Billings
---Ô¿Ô---
K e V i N


#20 RMUKfan

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 03:36 AM

QUOTE(kbens0n @ Mar 15 2009, 01:37 AM) View Post

If pressing the <Geocode> button does not appear to be doing anything... that is an indication that the Place Name you have entered is NOT being found in RM's Place Name database. You can observe how it is "supposed" to work by adding a new "valid" place such as my example above (Acworth, Sullivan, New Hampshire) and then pressing the <Geocode> button. It will automatically fill in the blanks wink.gif
Isle Of Wight, USA geocodes to Isle of Wight, Isle of Wight, Virginia, United States and if you wanted to change it... you would go into the Place List, Highlight that Place name, Click <Edit> button, fill the Place field with the intended replacement (Isle of Wight, England, United Kingdom), press <Geocode> button and voila! SAVE wink.gif

P.S. hopefully you weren't entering it as you did here ( Kingdom is missing the 'g' wink.gif ) or that would ALSO "appear" as if no change was possible.

Many thanks for this help.
I think the problem I found was that some of the places I was trying no longer exist so I suppose you should not expect them to Geocode smile.gif
I have tested the edit from the US one to the UK name and that works perfectly. Great.