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#1 lmparks6838

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:28 AM

Hi, I'm trying to find in the online help file or Getting the Most Out of RM where it explains what facts RM will substitute when a main fact is missing. For example, when I don't have a death fact, but I do have a burial.

Could someone please list all the facts that RM will substitute, or direct me to the help file that would have a list of these?

Thanks,
Linda


#2 Alfred

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 01:59 PM

RootsMagic will figure the age at events from the birth date, but if that is missing, the Christen may be used.

The living flag is turned off if there is a death fact, a burial fact or a will fact.
Alfred

#3 lmparks6838

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:35 PM

Thank you Alfred. I was surprised when I came across a person in my database who had no death fact, but did have a burial, and at the top of the RM screen, where it shows an individual's picture and b/m/d info, it had b/m/bu (for burial). So if I have a person with a christen date, but no birth date, will it show c/m/d? Does it also work for baptism? We use the term baptism, not christen, in our family.

As a side note, I wonder why I would want to mark a person as not living just because they signed a will. Gee, I've signed a will, and I'm still on the right side of the dirt... smile.gif

Linda


#4 Alfred

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:47 PM

Yes, with no birth, but Christen, it will show a "ch" in place of the "bu" for burial in place of d for death on the main screen.

Will does not seem to show up on the main screen. Although it does toggle the living flag to off.

I really do believe that the default sentence for Will should be something like:
<HisHer> will was read <date> <place>.
rather than
<name> signed a will <date> <place>.

Because signing a will cannot happen after the person is dead, but the will is usually read after death.
Alfred

#5 John_of_Ross_County

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 09:52 AM

QUOTE(Alfred @ Mar 3 2006, 08:47 PM) View Post


I really do believe that the default sentence for Will should be something like:
<HisHer> will was read <date> <place>.
rather than
<name> signed a will <date> <place>.

Because signing a will cannot happen after the person is dead, but the will is usually read after death.


Alfred, I do not quite agree with this idea. I have at least one ancestor with a probate file with a signed will and date of probate. There is no death date stated. The death was decades before Ohio began to record births and deaths. There is no known grave marker. So all I can say is that the death was between the date of signing the will and the date of starting probate.

The fact type "Will [proved]" matches your example more closely.


#6 Alfred

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 10:36 AM

What I was trying to say is:
Since the will fact toggles the living flag, signing the will shouldn't make a person stop living.

Many people make out and SIGN a will shortly after they get married --- On second thought, that is about the time a man stops living. biggrin.gif (Only kidding, Ladies. ph34r.gif A man just doesn't know what living is until he gets married, But, then it's too late. rolleyes.gif )

I don't know the proper legal terms, but I sort of think of reading a will, proving a will or probating an estate as similar events. (I know that you can Probate an estate without a Will.)

------------
I just noticed that using the Probate fact will turn the living flag off. Sounds logical, the estate isn't probated until after a declaration of death.

Alfred

#7 lmparks6838

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 11:18 AM

QUOTE(lmparks6838 @ Mar 3 2006, 07:35 PM) View Post

Does it also work for baptism? We use the term baptism, not christen, in our family.


So what's the answer on this? In my dictionary, christen implies baptism plus naming of the person. Baptism is defined as just the ceremonial joining of the church community (rough transcription of what it really said).

Is this a family tradition or a religious tradition of what you call this ceremony? We're Catholics, and we just always used the word "baptism." Do other denominations use the word christen? But then, a person can be baptised when they are not an infant anymore, and one would presume they have already been given a name by that time....

I wonder if anybody knows the history of the difference between these two terms?

And just to confirm, christen will replace birth on the main screen, but baptism will not?

Linda


QUOTE(John_of_Ross_County @ Mar 4 2006, 09:52 AM) View Post

The fact type "Will [proved]" matches your example more closely.


John -- I don't have this fact on my list. Did you define this yourself? If so, how did you word the sentence?

Linda


#8 aplucinik

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 11:54 AM

QUOTE(lmparks6838 @ Mar 4 2006, 10:18 AM) View Post

So what's the answer on this? In my dictionary, christen implies baptism plus naming of the person. Baptism is defined as just the ceremonial joining of the church community (rough transcription of what it really said).

Is this a family tradition or a religious tradition of what you call this ceremony? We're Catholics, and we just always used the word "baptism." Do other denominations use the word christen? But then, a person can be baptised when they are not an infant anymore, and one would presume they have already been given a name by that time....

I wonder if anybody knows the history of the difference between these two terms?

And just to confirm, christen will replace birth on the main screen, but baptism will not?

Linda
John -- I don't have this fact on my list. Did you define this yourself? If so, how did you word the sentence?

Linda


A quick and simple test will tell you whether Baptism replaces birth on the main screen. Remove someone's birthdate and make sure they have a baptism fact with date. Now look at the main screen. Does a baptism date appear in place of a birth date? My test shows that baptism doesn't replace the birth date. However Christen fact does replace a birth date if birth date is missing.

However, the Christen (Adult) fact type does not replace the birth date which makes sense since this event would be long after their birth.

You're not going to get any agreement from anyone on the difference between christening and baptism. The definition of the two or differences or similarities between the two varies from one religion or Christian denomination to the next. However, generally speaking, or in most cases, Christening usually occurs very soon after birth. However, baptism can occur anytime between birth and death so baptism is not a reliable way to estimate someone's birth date. Thus it is not used in place of a birthdate in RootsMagic on the main screen.

#9 John_of_Ross_County

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 04:35 PM

QUOTE(lmparks6838 @ Mar 4 2006, 10:18 AM) View Post



Linda
John -- I don't have this fact on my list. Did you define this yourself? If so, how did you word the sentence?

Linda


Sorry about that. After I was off the discussion board, I checked a new empty database. The fact for Will [proved} was not there. I must have defined it myself.

The sentence structure reads, "<HisHer> will was proved <date> <place>."

I also made one for "Twin." The sentence structure reads, "<name> was a twin." Of course, it needs to be added to both siblings.

I think this one was discussed recently. For a couple with no children, I defined "No Issue" with a sentence structure, "<couple> had no children." This is designated as a "Family" fact type and is added to one person. It then automatically transfers to the spouse.