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Question regarding PLACE fields for GEDCOM experts here


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#1 RyanN

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 04:10 PM

Sorry for the generic question.  Preparing for RM8 and can't access v.7 (I use a Mac exclusively--have for over a decade).

 

What I am looking for is an easy-to-understand explanation of the GEDCOM tags that are generally used for citation template fields.  If anyone knows of a web resource for this, I'd be grateful.  Note: I realize that RM7 and RM8 have these templates already.  My interest concerns migrating a Reunion database, but I also have other thoughts going on concerning these tags.  Anyway, here's and example (I think the text scrolls horizontal):

Iredell County, North Carolina, Death Certificate; Local File # 0112 (1902), "Moosebreath, Horace," Flounder County Register of Deeds, Springfield

I'd love to know what the tags are for pretty much everything in this example that falls before or after a comma.  Trying to figure out if tags like STAT and CITY get used for source templates, but also what the real-world use is for some of the other various tags that are defined to sound as though they all serve more or less the very same function (the tags CALN, REFN, RFN and RIN come to mind, for example).

Anyway, if a resource is out there to help me make sense of this, I'd be grateful.  Thanks in advance!



#2 KFN

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 05:52 PM

Are you asking what RM7 does with various GEDCOM tags -or- what the GEDCOM tag actually are supposed to be used for?

 

Most genealogy programs don’t use GEDCOM correctly, and rarely use them the same.

 

The GEDCOM Standard suggests not using STAE and CITY tags as part of the ADDR tag.  Here is what the GEDCOM 5.5.1 Standard says:

The address structure should be formed as it would appear on a mailing label using the ADDR and the CONT lines to form the address structure. The ADDR and CONT lines are required for any address. The additional subordinate address tags such as STAE and CTRY are provided to be used by systems that have structured their addresses for indexing and sorting. 

Your topic description indicates you are discussing the PLAC tag.  Did you know that the ADDR “address-structure” is not part of the PLAC “place-structure”?  CALN, REFN, RFN and RIN have specific GEDCOM definitions.  



#3 KFN

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 08:30 PM

Tag Definitions

 

REFN = USER_REFERENCE_NUMBER: {Size=1:20} A user-defined number or text that the submitter uses to identify this record. For instance, it may be a record number within the submitter's automated or manual system, or it may be a page and position number on a pedigree chart.

RIN = AUTOMATED_RECORD_ID:=  {Size=1:12}  A unique record identification number assigned to the record by the source system.  This number is intended to serve as a more sure means of identification of a record for reconciling differences in data between two interfacing systems.

CALN {CALL_NUMBER}:=  {Size=1:120} The number used by a repository to identify the specific items in its collections.

RFN = PERMANENT_RECORD_FILE_NUMBER:= {Size=1:90} The record number that uniquely identifies this record within a registered network resource. The number will be usable as a cross-reference pointer. The use of the colon ( :) is reserved to indicate the separation of the "registered resource identifier" (which precedes the colon) and the unique "record identifier" within that resource (which follows the colon). If the colon is used, implementations that check pointers should not expect to find a matching cross-reference identifier in the transmission but would find it in the indicated database within a network. Making resource files available to a public network is a future implementation.

 

My interpretation of the fields

I use REFN as my personal internal reference number.  I have a background in Library and Museum Sciences and cataloging. I have my own personal cataloging system at home where all of my photos, documents and sources are all cataloged using a library like Accession numbering system.  As I add individuals to my database they also receive a catalog number and I store it in the REFN tag.  I have an outside database that manages the interaction between my photo/document/source collection and the individuals that I maintain in my genealogy database.

RIN numbers are to be generated by the genealogy database system.  For most software they duplicate the GEDCOM XREF value.  This should not be something that you the user should be worried about.

CALN is the number assigned by the source repository (the library Dewey Number or Library of Congress Number)  It is found/used to connect the Source Record to the Repository Record.

RFN is for systems like Ancestry where (if they used it) they could give each person a unique number and all clients (A.Com users) would reference the same person within the A.Com system rather than everyone entering the same person over and over.  My great great great great grandfather must be in A.Com 100 times for each relative that has uploaded his data. Some of the information is good some of it in not so good.  Some information is incomplete or wrong because they copied it from another person and never did their own research to fix the data.



#4 RyanN

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Posted 19 December 2020 - 12:43 PM

@KFN,

This is extremely useful information.  Sorry for a near two-day delay response!  I am tracking your cut-paste from the published standard, which I should have referenced I was referring to before I posted the OP.  Also tracking this forum software's flipping of your pasted text into an emoticon in one spot up there (it should have appeared as 

(:)

This is all rather helpful information for me.  Thanks so much for sharing, and especially for your interpretations of the four tags I mentioned.

 

Are you asking what RM7 does with various GEDCOM tags -or- what the GEDCOM tag actually are supposed to be used for?

 

 

I was asking a little of both.  Since I posted though, something dandy happened: RootsMagic repaired its wrapper for Mac (it can now run on the current OS).  I've since downloaded v.7 and can answer a lot of these questions on my own now.

 

Did you know that the ADDR “address-structure” is not part of the PLAC “place-structure”?

 

I did not.  

 

I have a background in Library and Museum Sciences and cataloging.

 

This topic and database design/usage in general are also right up my alley.  I seriously considered another, and somewhat late-in-life masters degree in library science just a year ago.  Decided to embark on a History degree instead (TY Uncle Sam!).

 

Although I find RM7's GUI rather Windows 95-isn in appearance, it shines above the rest in terms of its overarching utility as a database.  For my use, which is aggressive and robust, this matters more than anything else.  Bruce also strikes me as a truly nice fellow.  I hope to meet him eventually.

 

Back to the OP, I would indeed love to know what GEDCOM tags get used for source content.  That little death certificate example sort of works for the purpose of my question.  You explained PLAC would be applied, but what would "Death Certificate" as a term/source-type get assigned to, and/or what about the document identifier (0112)?

 

...these questions matter only very little I suppose, because I will be building a tree from a clean slate when RM8 releases.  I suppose I'm just considering what I want to tweak in settings/tag assignments and so on before I begin populating a new tree with data.



#5 KFN

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Posted 19 December 2020 - 05:42 PM

Two things you should know:

 

1) I don't use RM7 because too many tags of GEDCOM were dropped or changed when I did my import

2) Not all GEDCOM tags are clear as to what data is appropriate for entry, and because of #1 some data will be lost even if you use them correctly.

 

Not knowing based on the line you gave me what each piece of data represents;

Iredell County, North Carolina, Death Certificate; Local File # 0112 (1902), "Moosebreath, Horace," Flounder County Register of Deeds, Springfield

Since that Date of the Death Certificate Data was dropped on import, I'm not sure what information that is in my GEDCOM (from a very compliant database source) would get translated to the various fields internal to RM7.  You would need to experiment.

 

I'm assuming the (1902) is the year of death (or at least the recording year of the certificate)  Local File normally comes from the GEDCOM SOUR.REPO.CALN tag and this information is not (as far as I can see) is not used in the generated Footnote in RM7.  The generated footnote is "free-form" and is not the same as what would be generated by manually entering the data using a "Death Certificate" source type.  Again you may need to rework you Sources to make them match the various templates from EE in RM7.  This is an area I don't know enough about to help you.



#6 dhwalt

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Posted 21 December 2020 - 03:11 AM

Re.

Sorry for the generic question.  Preparing for RM8 and can't access v.7 (I use a Mac exclusively--have for over a decade).

 

There is a current wrapper for RM7 to be used with Big Sur MacOS 11.1 and that would be a good starting point. I am using Reunion 13 and have in the past moved a Reunion exported ged to RM, several years ago. It took some processing of the ged using regular expressions in a text editor but did work and my current RM 7.6.5 on both iMac and PC had its origins from that point. So, yes, possible but with some work required!

 

If you want EE compliant footnotes in RM7 then a custom template is a good starting point i.e. with nesting and logic statements. My advice would be to accept the existing limitations, get to grips with the specific differences RM vs. Reunion and then move on to the modified RM. RM8 could answer some of the issues but working with RM7 on your Mac is where to start. I recommend geneamusings.com and the Sample Source Citations tab as a good read.



#7 RyanN

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Posted 21 December 2020 - 11:07 PM

@dhwalt - as I referenced somewhere above, having this wrapper now working is very timely and helpful.

 

@KFN - The death certificate example you saw in OP was just something I doctored up to look like a footnote.  

 

That "new tree" reference I made above was a intended to be taken literally ; ).   I'm starting this tree entirely scratch.  Having said that, I'm admittedly a software/database architecture junky.  I love this stuff--but I'm very particular about design/functionality, or in other words; a software developer's worst nightmare :D.  



#8 TomH

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Posted 28 December 2020 - 02:05 PM

For source templates other than the so-called Free Form, RootsMagic uses its own set of custom GEDCOM tags. Free Form uses only the TITL and PAGE tags. When exporting to GEDCOM, RM van export a templated citation to both custom tags and those two standard tags in the same GEDCOM file. For TITL, it exports the sentence generated by the template stripped of all the citation-specific (source details) fields values (and any text dependent thereon); for PAGE it exports the concatenation of all the citation-specific values separated by a semicolon and space character. The result when imported into a program that cannot support RM's customisations can be pretty awful. And there is no way to export to the other standard GEDCOM tags for sources such as PUBL, AUTH,...


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#9 Vyger

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Posted 30 December 2020 - 01:55 PM

What I am looking for is an easy-to-understand explanation of the GEDCOM tags that are generally used for citation template fields.

 

I would test and test again before commiting. I was felt forced to do a test today regarding Gedcom losses RM to RM and I was reminded of the fact RM repeatedly duplicates Page info in templated sources. The program I used was a free file compare program called Winmerge, other similar apps are available.

 

On a general note RM has a nasty habit of duplicating exact data such as this and Notes in Place and Place Detail entries, I'm not sure if this is purely down to the dropped trailing CONC.

 

page-duplication.PNG


Keeping ones customers and their important views at a distance is never a good approach

 

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Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

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