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Showing multiple marriage events in a Family Group Sheet


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#1 History Hunter

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Posted 17 April 2020 - 03:37 PM

Can RM7 show two marriage facts for the same couple on a Family Group Sheet? It doesn't seem to work for me. I have an aunt who was married in the United Church and two months later was married in the Catholic Church.



#2 zhangrau

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Posted 17 April 2020 - 05:35 PM

For situations like this, I have a custom fact type "Marriage (Alternate)"

I have dozens of couples whose marriage dates were reported differently in newspapers, marriage records, and divorce records. In these cases, I use the marriage record as my official date, and record the other dates as alternates.

I just tested a couple with 1 each of Marriage and Marriage (Alternate), and both facts (plus Divorce) printed in their FGS.

 

20200417-mar-alt-fact-type.png



#3 History Hunter

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Posted 17 April 2020 - 06:34 PM

Thank you for the suggestion. I'll take a look at using this. My situation is one in which the couple were married in the United Church, but then had to be married in the Catholic Church as well. It's actually a more common situation than it first appears.



#4 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 17 April 2020 - 08:23 PM

I nearly always use narrative reports rather than Family Group Sheets, but this discussion has made me wonder. I have several couples in my database who were married, divorced, and then remarried to each other. In fact, in one case the same couple was married, divorced, married, divorced, and married again, all to each other. Are you saying that these events will not be reflected in Family Group Sheets?

 

Note that my examples are not cases of alternate dates or alternate marriages, such as a civil marriage and a religious marriage, nor are they two different religious marriages. They are multiple and official but different marriages to the same person.

 

Jerry



#5 History Hunter

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Posted 17 April 2020 - 09:19 PM

Jerry;

Yes. If I have two or more marriage facts for the same couple, only the first appears in the Family Group Sheet.

#6 John_of_Ross_County

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Posted 17 April 2020 - 09:42 PM

I have a couple with marriage & divorce followed by another marriage & divorce.  As long as the events are entered with the same spouse and sequential marriage-divorce pairs, the family group sheet, the narrative report, and individual summary report the data as entered.



#7 History Hunter

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Posted 18 April 2020 - 05:42 AM

I wonder if my situation is not working, because it is a marriage - marriage sequence rather than marriage - divorce? Will have to play with it a bit and see what happens.

#8 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 18 April 2020 - 08:24 AM

I wonder if my situation is not working, because it is a marriage - marriage sequence rather than marriage - divorce? Will have to play with it a bit and see what happens.

 

Please report what you discover about the marriage - marriage sequence without an intervening divorce. I'm not sure why a Family Group Sheet should need an intervening divorce in order to show both marriages.

 

In the case of marriage - marriage to the same person, there may be evidence of the divorce in the absence of the actual divorce record. In my experience, marriage records can be much easier to find than divorce records. And marriage records (especially modern ones) often list each spouses's marital status and the number of  previous marriages. So if a marriage record states that a person is divorced, that is evidence for a divorce even if exact date and place of the divorce is not known. And the number of previous marriages can be evidence as to whether there was an intervening spouse who was a different person. This leads to the possibility of entering a Divorce fact with an approximate date and a blank place.

 

Jerry



#9 History Hunter

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Posted 18 April 2020 - 08:33 AM

Jerry;

 

In this case, the couple are my aunt and uncle (both now deceased). I am quite certain about this situation of a United Church marriage and then a Catholic Church marriage (without an intervening divorce). This was the normal practice for the Catholic Church to require there be a separate Catholic marriage of mixed-faith couples. My Mum and Dad had to do the same.

I think the issue is that RM7 is assuming that there is only one marriage event per family group, because a marriage event usually"initiates" a new family unit. These double-marriage situations are a bit of an exception to that rule. To circumvent the internal logic of RM7, I think I may have to clone the marriage event and name it something like "Re-Marriage".



#10 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 18 April 2020 - 08:52 AM

I think there are two "different" situations here that may not really be different.

 

One situation is marriage - marriage without a divorce. The marriage - marriage sequence without an intervening divorce can be because of a two different religious marriages as you describe. I recently met a couple who had both a Baptist marriage and a Catholic marriage over 50 years ago. Or the marriage - marriage sequence can be because there was both a religious marriage and a civil marriage. The latter situation does happen occasionally and I have it in my database. It's a little puzzling to me why it's necessary to have both a religious marriage and a civil marriage because society licenses religious leaders (ministers, priests, rabbis, etc.) as marriage officiants in such a way that the religious marriage also serves as the civil marriage. In any case, the marriage - marriage sequence could  be addressed as you have described with some sort of Alternate Marriage fact. But that's a really ugly solution and genealogy software shouldn't make it necessary. Genealogy software should support multiple marriages for the same couple without an intervening divorce fully and gracefully with two actual Marriage facts.

 

The other situation is marriage - divorce - marriage for the same couple. An Alternate Marriage fact to solve this situation is not just ugly. It's really just wrong. Genealogy software should support this situation fully and gracefully with two actual Marriage facts.

 

Jerry

 



#11 History Hunter

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Posted 18 April 2020 - 10:38 AM

Jerry;

I tend to agree with you that RM should handle this.
I’ve dropped a line about it to the RM team.
If it is a “bug”, I trust they’ll elevate it in their database.
However; I’m sure it wouldn’t be fixed in RM7 and RM8 seems likely to be a LONG way off.

#12 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 18 April 2020 - 01:57 PM

RM8 seems likely to be a LONG way off.

 

You know, it's hard to know how long off RM8 is. I've tried to withhold comment because I'm a software person myself and I know how hard software projects can be. And RM7 continues to work just fine for me.

When the announcement was made that RM8 would not be delivered in 2019, my best guess at the time was that there would be about a six month delay. But I recognized at the time that my best guess could be way off. I still feel sort of the same way - maybe it will be out in mid-summer of this year and maybe not. I'm fine either way.

 

Jerry



#13 History Hunter

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Posted 18 April 2020 - 03:44 PM

Jerry;

 

Thanks for your help.

 

I've written, tested and maintained software for most of my career prior to retirement. I know such projects are a challenge.

However; demonstrating it at trade shows and selling advanced licenses was (in my opinion) a poor choice if the product wasn't near release.

The risk of a major publicly-visible catastrophe or annoying people is just too great. Yet, here we are...

 

Frankly; I try to use RM7 on a Mac, but the work-arounds to circumvent some of its quirks may cause me a lot of work later on.

It wouldn't be so bad, if I could see that RM7 was being fully maintained and the ongoing issues were strictly cosmetic.

Sigh... I know that sooner or later, I'm going to get frustrated and just write off the year-old advanced license as a bad debt.

 

So; I sure hope your crystal ball is correct with respect to a summer release.



#14 Nettie

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Posted 18 April 2020 - 07:38 PM

I have a maie grt grandfather with 3 marriages and they do show on the Family Group sheet.  :) I have the female names and marriage dates also. 

 I have a female [niece] with three marriages, without a spouse listed and the 3 marriages do show on the FGS.  I switched the spouses and showed one of them as the male, reprinted the FGS and the other marriages did show on the FGS for the female. :)  :)

 

Yes,  it shows on the Ind Summary for the female.  Many times I use the Ind Summary to add to the file folder of the one husbands if it is the direct lines . 

My software is up to date with RM revisions and Win 10. 


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#15 History Hunter

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Posted 18 April 2020 - 09:15 PM

Nettie;
These are two marriage dates for the same couple, not three separate marriages that only share one person in common. Yours works because it sees it as three family groups

#16 Mike M. 77

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Posted 19 April 2020 - 02:29 PM

In my database, I have about a dozen examples of couples in New York City (mostly pre-1925), who went to City Hall or Borough Hall and were married in front of a city official and then a week or two later were married again in front of a rabbi in their home neighborhood. I can think of several reasons this happened. One might be initial objections by family. Or, perhaps it happened because in Austria/Poland, Jewish religious marriages and civil marriages were two completely separate acts (many couples never got a civil license or didn't get one until many years later in order to "legitimize" their children and clean up family paperwork and surnames). Some immigrant families may have been "just making sure" that everything was legal. Most families would have considered the second marriage, the religious ceremony, to be the "real" wedding date. 

 

Those cases of late civil marriage in Europe, which affected many tens of thousands of immigrant families, is not just a little quirk. It is significant genealogically as it explains why families suddenly switched surnames upon immigration or at some point late in life. It might also help explain conflicting data about a mother or grandmother's maiden name.

 

This exact subject is a huge political issue in Israel right now, where the law empowers only Orthodox rabbis to officiate at Jewish weddings. Many in the country's majority object to this restriction and the requirement that all Jewish couples meet Orthodox standards. Many are demanding the right to have a civil marriage.

 

In any case, it never occurred to me to check if Family Group Sheets were listing both ceremonies. 

 

If all the common reports leave something out, it would really be helpful to have a comprehensive chart listing the different reports and what key information doesn't print in each one. It's very difficult for some of us to keep it straight.

 

Mike M.



#17 History Hunter

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Posted 19 April 2020 - 07:05 PM

Yes. Such things worry me a bit, too.

#18 Rick Landrum

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 08:58 AM

At the risk of seeming to crash in on this  thread.....

I have a question regarding multiple marriages and family group sheets as it applies to the Publisher function. I too have numerous multiple marriages in my tree (example - same husband, different wives). I have found that I have to use more than one family group sheet in publisher. One for each marriage. Technically this works, but it results in duplication of the husbands information, and adds to the page length of the report. Is this correct, or am I doing something wrong?

 

It does appear that a better choice may be to use the Individual Summary for the husband. Information about all spouses and children is included in that report. 

 

Rick


RickL


#19 Renee Zamora

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 04:34 PM

Rick, you will need separate family group sheets, one for each family he made with different spouses. 


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#20 Renee Zamora

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 04:37 PM

I checked and if I add a second marriage fact for the same couple it will show both on the Family Group sheet. What I cannot test is having the spouses linked twice to each other making separate family groups. That's because RM doesn't let you create duplicate spouse relationships to the same people. You have to do something funky with merging to get that to happen. I'm wondering if that is the case and you have the same couple linked twice and only see the marriage for the family group sheet you are displaying. 


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