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#1 DoninRiver

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 09:20 PM

My ancestor died in Little Britain Twp. Lancaster County, PA before Little Britain Twp. split and now the property he lived on is in Fulton Twp. 

 

Should this information be included in my RM records and if so how? 

 

DoninRiver



#2 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 09:54 PM

This is an extremely common issue which affects all kinds of places during many different time frames. You are likely to get multiple and conflicting responses.

 

Some users prefer to use modern place names to facilitate geocoding. Some users prefer to use historically accurate place names. I do the latter, but it doesn't seem to me that there is a true consensus about which approach is the most appropriate.

 

Also, some place name standards do not support political subdivisions smaller than a county except for a city/town, so these standards do not support townships at all, neither before nor after splits. I feel very strongly that such standards are so bad that nobody should use them, but such standards are in really common use. You can enter township information into RM's Place Details if you wish, but if you do so then the township information is likely to be lost if ever your data is shared with any other genealogy software. I don't want township information to be lost (or cemetery information or anything like that), so I include township and cemetery information in RM's main Place field and I don't use RM's Place Details field at all.

 

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#3 JimDavis79

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 10:45 AM

DoninRiver, I concur with Jerry in all respects.  In the past, my practice was to enter current names, but then what if they change in the future?  So, i'm going back to using names at the time the event occurred, and am correcting previous entries to historical names.

 

In case you don't know, latitude and longitude can be entered for specific places in the Edit Place window, or from the Place List.  Hope that's clear, please forgive if not.


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#4 Nettie

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 01:49 PM

One way, is to use the notes to document the name changes of a place, then it will stay with the person's file. 


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#5 Vyger

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 05:46 AM

Jurisdiction, County, State and even Country changes are common over time, I believe the event Place should always be recorded as it was and as Nettie said explanatory Notes and even a map extract could be included to explain exactly where the POI was.

The thing which doesn't change is the geocoding, the Rootsmagic Gazetteer is a bit limited but one can always manually geocode the Place/Place Details. Unfortunately the current version of Rootsmagic makes mathematical use of the geocoding except to sent it off to Bing for a visual plot. I have a large geocoded reference of the Parishes and Townlands of Ireland, this helps show the geography of families but none of this is included or supported by RM Gazetteer, nor would I expect it to be. What I do expect from Rootsmagic development is an easier programmed method of manually geocoding Places/Place Details in line with competitor software as the process is slow and time comsuming at present.

That point on earth is the only constant and outside of your Jurisdiction change what if you had Ancestors in Germany or other European country, do you record the Place as the original language text or the Anglicized version of the Place?

I always argue that regardless of how you and I record the Place if the geocoding and time frame is close then your ancestor may well have met mine.

I also note regardless of the accuracy of the geocoding this subject often comes up due to style preference in reports where people could easily misunderstand the output applying modern standards. Many years ago I proposed the option of an appendix report which would include notes, where they existed, for only those Places used in the report, this would provide the further information required by report readers.

http://forums.rootsm...or-media-notes/


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#6 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 07:05 AM

That point on earth is the only constant and outside of your Jurisdiction change what if you had Ancestors in Germany or other European country, do you record the Place as the original language text or the Anglicized version of the Place?

 

Another variation on the theme of languages for place names is simply language support in general in genealogy. For example, suppose you wanted to have a single genealogy database from which you could produce reports in English or French. Presumably, this kind of capability would involve supporting multiple sets of sentence templates, - in this case an English set of sentence templates for English pronouns and conjunctions and prepositions and the like, and also a French set of sentence templates for all the same items.

 

I know there is already genealogy software with language support. I'm not familiar with such software, and something like I'm describing is surely how they work to support reports in multiple languages. But then how do you handle the place names in reports? Do you have to store both the English and French place names so that the sentence templates can select the correct version of the place name for the report being produced? Or is there some other solution?

 

Jerry



#7 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 07:30 AM

Unfortunately the current version of Rootsmagic makes mathematical use of the geocoding except to sent it off to Bing for a visual plot. I have a large geocoded reference of the Parishes and Townlands of Ireland, this helps show the geography of families but none of this is included or supported by RM Gazetteer, nor would I expect it to be. What I do expect from Rootsmagic development is an easier programmed method of manually geocoding Places/Place Details in line with competitor software as the process is slow and time comsuming at present.

 

Readers of these forums will recognize that Vyger and I disagree from time to time about some of RM's place management issues. However, I suspect that if we could sit down and talk together, we would quickly discover that actually agree much more than we disagree.  :)   In any case, I don't make any use of RM's geocoding facilities but I make heavy use of geocoding in genealogy.

One of several problems with RM's geocoding from my perspective is that most of the areas I research extensively had frequent and large boundary changes over the time frame of most of my research - for example, county boundaries in Virginia, North Carolina, and Tennessee. New counties were continuously being created, and old county boundaries were continuously changing. And even when new counties were created, the new government often would not be fully formed in the official year of the founding and deeds and marriages and wills and the like would often continue to be recorded in the old county for many years thereafter.

 

Another problem is that I like to geocode very precisely when possible, down to an exact burial plot and down to the exact location of a house or hospital, and I like to geocode with polygons for deeds rather than with a single pin. RM's geocoding is simply not designed for the kind of mapping that I like to do.

 

Another problem is that RM's geocoding is not accessible to narrative reports, so that even if I manually geocode an exact burial plot in RM the coordinates do not appear in narrative reports. So I place the coordinates into Description fields and Notes. In the notes, I even include an RM private note in {squiggly braces} that won't print in narrative reports but that will display in a Web page made from my data which is a URL to a Google map with a pin on the exact coordinates for a particular burial plot. The coordinates that print in narrative reports instead are stored in RM's Description field.

 

The Google Maps satellite view usually has sufficient resolution to see the individual stones in a cemetery, and the Bing Maps satellite view usually does not have sufficient resolution to see individual stones. RM has to use Bing maps because their licensing costs for Google would be too high. But just for me as an individual to have a Google Maps URL which includes latitude and longitude requires no license from Google.

 

I'm actually not sure what I wish RM would do for me with respect to mapping and geocoding that it doesn't already do. Perhaps as Vyger suggests RM could make manual geocoding easier. Perhaps RM could make coordinates available to narrative reports. Perhaps RM's geocoding could support URL's which include coordinates in Web pages created by RM. (My Web pages are not created with RM even though they are created from RM data). I just know that RM's geocoding really doesn't meet my needs, so I do my own geocoding rather than using RM's.

 

Jerry



#8 BradleyinDC

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 01:44 PM

There will be a variety of options. Pick the one that works best for you.

In my case, I always try to use historically accurate place names (the name of the place at the time of the event) with the current name in [brackets]. 



#9 Vyger

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 03:35 PM

Readers of these forums will recognize that Vyger and I disagree from time to time about some of RM's place management issues. However, I suspect that if we could sit down and talk together, we would quickly discover that actually agree much more than we disagree.  :)   In any case, I don't make any use of RM's geocoding facilities but I make heavy use of geocoding in genealogy.

 

I think it only appears that Jerry and I disagree, my observations is that Jerry is more focused on being textually accurate whereas I am less focused on how reports look and more focused on mathematical proximity of events as research clues.

 

The wide spread differences and discussions of whether to enter new or old Place Name, include County or not, use abbreviations, enter USA or United States will go on ad infinitum. Now these personal data recording styles are purely driven by how the user wants things to look and these varied entry styles will hinder the AUTO geocoding of those Places, but already we can essentially have both.

 

The Place field is what currently appears in reports but the Standardized Place Name is free for accurate long winded recording of the Place name. Where the Place is a recognized one I enter a 3, 4, 2 component for Place, Std Place, Abbrev Place, however Rootsmagic does not currently facilitate great use of my extended work and I hope things improve along with much easier manual geocoding. It also has to be pointed out that my extra work is currently lost through Gedcom transfer.

 

So forgetting reporting format desires, genealogy is a research project and the proximity and time frames of events are important clues and sometimes the only tenuous clues and they are easy to calculate mathematically. To demonstrate a US example let’s take Sault Ste. Marie up on the border, family live on both sides of the river therefore different Counties, States and Countries and yet geocoding shows the families can virtually wave at each other across St. Marys River.

 

So the desires of Jerry and I are essentially two sides of the same coin, mapping within a time frame, geographic reversing of the Place List and geocoding by drag and drop or other easy inbuilt system are big desires of mine. Whilst Rootsmagic may not initially embrace the analytical power of crunching the geocodes within a time frame if I have the facility to do this like other software provides at least I would be able to visually identify geographic community and family clues.

 

Names, Dates & Places are essentially the three main genealogy clues, any serious research software package needs to make the most of all three.


We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

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Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

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#10 DoninRiver

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 07:53 PM

Thanks to everyone for your comments.  Gives me food for thought.

 

DoninRiver



#11 BradleyinDC

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 08:10 PM

There will be a variety of options. Pick the one that works best for you.

In my case, I always try to use historically accurate place names (the name of the place at the time of the event) with the current name in [brackets]. 

 

I should add that I use the original name in the original language and the current name in English. Works for me. YMMV



#12 Vyger

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Posted 07 November 2019 - 06:40 AM

 

I should add that I use the original name in the original language and the current name in English. Works for me. YMMV

 

Is that all in the Place field?

 

At present the Standardized Place Name and Abbreviated Place Name do not transfer by gedcom although I still make use of them. There have been repeated wishes for some additional fields for the likes of Historical Place Name and maybe other variations although RM needs to also provide some options and control for users to make use of them. If you are harvesting online matches I think it is important that your Place field is as recognizable as possible and probably in Englsih language.

 

We will have to wait and see what, if any, improvements RM8 brings to the table regarding the endless discussion and various needs for Place management.


We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

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#13 BradleyinDC

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 07:52 AM

 

Is that all in the Place field?

 

At present the Standardized Place Name and Abbreviated Place Name do not transfer by gedcom although I still make use of them. There have been repeated wishes for some additional fields for the likes of Historical Place Name and maybe other variations although RM needs to also provide some options and control for users to make use of them. If you are harvesting online matches I think it is important that your Place field is as recognizable as possible and probably in Englsih language.

 

We will have to wait and see what, if any, improvements RM8 brings to the table regarding the endless discussion and various needs for Place management.

Yes, all of that in the place name (which can get unwieldy sometimes). 
I'm American and use the city, county, state, country scheme (or equivalent) in the place name and put other/more specific information in the memo field (cemetery name, actual address, ward, etc)
Reunion is still my main program (been waiting impatiently for a useable native Mac version of RM). That said, RM imported even long place names via GEDCOM (eg, "Nordenbrock [now part of Tenstedt], Amt. Cloppenburg, Prince-Bishopric of Münster, Holy Roman Empire [now Germany]"). I don't use the Standardized Place Name or Abbreviated Place Name, obviously.
Most of my place name changes are in the US (lots of former colony names [now states] or lots of formerly large counties that have been subdivided).



#14 Vyger

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 11:22 AM

....and put other/more specific information in the memo field (cemetery name, actual address, ward, etc)
....I don't use the Standardized Place Name or Abbreviated Place Name, obviously.

 

You also don't appear to embrace Place Details although if you rely on Gedcom compatibility I can see why.


We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

User of Family Historian 6.2.7, Rootsmagic 7.6.2, Family Tree Maker 2014 & Legacy 7.5

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

Root