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Rearrange Citations and Sources of a Fact

Citations Sources

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#1 Joey


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Posted 05 June 2019 - 04:55 PM

I would love to be able to rearrange sources and citations for any given fact. For example, I may have 20 land sources entered for the Property fact of an ancestor. The sources are listed as I entered them. I would like to rearrange them, possibly by date, possibly by book, etc. A simple drag and drop feature would be very helpful! The Memorize/Paste feature is very cumbersome if you have numerous sources that need to be rearranged. Drag and Drop wold be much easier. Thanks!

#2 Nettie


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Posted 05 June 2019 - 06:12 PM

Many times, I have wanted to do this, and the only way is created a .rtf file into word and redo the sources rhey way you want them.

There are many discussions in the past years on this topic.  Do a search and you will find them.

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#3 TomH


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Posted 06 June 2019 - 08:13 AM

For a given fact, a laborious workaround in the Citation Manager is to Memorise, Paste, Delete original one at a time in the sequence that you wish to order them.

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#4 Kamolga


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Posted 09 June 2019 - 05:53 AM

This happened to me yesterday (again): I copied the citation to put it in last position, then deleted it and had nothing to paste :(    

-> drag & drop would be much easier...also for the facts (on same date or no date) and for children order as well (even though TomH has published some SQL to arrange those categories already). 

For most of the people sources, I have the wedding of their child as first source, then comes their wedding, then death and birth records....that does not make sense but updating them all with copy-pasting is just impossible, I never do it when more than 3 sources.

Rootsmagic with a lot of SQL queries (SQLiteSpy) and a bit of Family Historian 6.2 (tree view and map)

#5 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 07:29 AM

For most of the people sources, ...


The ability to re-arrange sources has been a wish since RM4. In RM1, RM2, and RM3 you couldn't re-arrange them, but at least they were in alphabetic order which made it easier to find them. It will be interesting to see if RM8 has any improvements in this area. Even if not, my hope is that because getting RM8 out the door has been a logjam that once that logjam is broken that many long wished for improvements will start appearing in RM9, RM10, etc.


But what I'm really writing about is the whole notion of having people sources as opposed to having fact sources. I go back and forth between whether people sources are even needed if all your facts are appropriately sourced. Having people sources seems redundant somehow or other. On the other hand, when you are interchanging your data with other genealogy software, sometimes RM's people sources are retained but RM's fact sources are lost.


There is also the issue that RM fails to have sources for two important "facts". Namely, a person's primary name is not really a fact in RM and a therefore cannot have sources. And a person's parentage is not really a fact in RM and therefore cannot have sources. So maybe sources for a person's name and parentage need to be people sources in all cases??


In the case of a person's name, I believe that RM's data model for names is going to change in RM8 so that a person's primary name can have sources. A person's alternate names in RM can already have sources, but not a person's primary name. Go figure. So I hope this situation is really improved in RM. In the meantime, I have a Name fact for some people in my database who have complicated naming situations. I don't like using the Alternate Name fact because of the word "alternate". I think of people having multiple names and I think the concepts of "primary name" and "alternate name" really aren't very applicable. So even if RM8 supports "multiple names", I'm probably not going to be very happy in some cases having to designate one of them as "primary" when I think the whole concept of "primary name" vs. "alternate name" is somewhat misguided.


In the case of a person's parentage, there is a line in RM's Edit Person screen for Parents and that line has a place to enter sources. So it looks like the problem of sources for parentage is solved. But it really isn't. The reason is that sources that go on the Parents line in the Edit Person screen are really only for the couple and don't apply to the children at all. And for example, if the parentage sources for different siblings are different documents, then all the sources for all the siblings will appear on the Edit Person screen on the Parents line for all the siblings.


Also, the appearance of family sources is a mess in RM's narrative reports. Since there is no real fact for the family sources to be associated with, the citation superscripts just sort of float around in mid-air in the report. They are in the family section of narrative reports along with things like marriage facts and divorce facts the superscripts are not attached to any fact. And in particular, the parents are not listed for the child and evidence of parentage is not listed for the child. For this reason, I have a Parents fact in my database for every person who has parents, and that's where the parentage sources go. It means that everybody's parents are listed explicitly in narrative reports, which otherwise they are not. And it means that the Parents fact has proper citation superscripts when it appears in narrative reports.


Short of RM itself introducing a real Parents fact, I can't imagine that this issue will be addressed in RM8 or any future version of RM. Indeed, I think this is a defect in the data model for all of genealogy. For example, in GEDCOM a person's parents are indicated via a FAMC tag for the child. But the FAMC tag is not a real fact. Rather, it's just a link to the FAMS tag for the parents. You can have a source associated with a "family" in GEDCOM, but it's not really specific to a particular FAMC tag. Indeed, sources associated with the family in this fashion are really just for couple, just like in RM. (Somebody is probably going to correct me on this, but that's the way all the GEDCOM I have looked at appears to work.  :) ). It's the exact same lineage linked model that RM uses for linking children to parents, and surely genealogy writ large can do better than that for providing evidence of parentage.



#6 Kamolga


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Posted 10 June 2019 - 03:15 AM


...people sources are even needed if all your facts are appropriately sourced. Having people sources seems redundant somehow or other.

It is redundant, to me it is only a quick visual way to see all citations at once without looping through facts. Research notes are written in a way to get all information without opening them, that way I got a full 'family package' where I can quickly make a decision.

Inporting from MyHeritage gets all sources under the person source and from FamilyHistorian deletes all family sources but keep the ones stored in facts. I tried to find a perfect import-export between RM and FH without success, so RM is master and FH only receive a gedcom to show my data in a specific way, never send it back...I only use FreeForm template for sources since they export better and might want to read some notes in FH. Finally, the person source is also the only suitable place to mention where the person is imported from (myheritage, geneanet, ancestry, gedcom,...)




I have a Name fact for some people in my database who have complicated naming situations. I don't like using the Alternate Name fact because of the word "alternate".


I have a lot of issues with names as well: half my family is Arabic (I don't speak the language), that means that the names are written in 4-5 spellings depending on the foreign officers. My father is born as محمد خليل قبلان, that already means that if I put all that branch in Arabic, I have a list of >100 Arabic names that I can not read. I therefore put "Mouhamed Kablan", his immigrant name in Belgium as a Nickname, so that I can read خليل"Mouhamed Kablan" قبلان in my people list. On my birth certificate, it is written Mouhamed Kablan born in April 1949 (no day, his parents only know it was somewhere March-April, each member of the family "chose" his birthday when they are asked for a date) but on his dead certificate, in England, He is Mohamed Kabalan born on 12 March 1949. I use Altname 'immigrant' each time but export often support only one Altname, and the altnames are not used (one at best) in the hints.My wife being Russian, I got all the patronym, name changing with gender, language I can not read problems as well. In Belgium, Joanna at birth becomes Anna at birth of third child, Wijnant,Wuynant, Weinants from one time to another (especially with illiterate farmers).At some point, I would write (Jo)anna as firstname Wijnant | Wijnants | Wuynant | Weinants as lastname but 1 month later, I would enter Anna Wijnants getting married (second time after death of husband) without noticing the person was already in my database, so I now use birth certificate as 'main name' (so arabic, Russian,etc.) and all other as Altname 'spelling' or 'Immigrant' and paste citations using those altname (redundant I know)...and, again, it is in the person source that I can check all at once to see if it make sense.


If RM8 does not support source order, I will use SQL to write dates as a number yyyymmdd followed by 2 digits in comment of the research (I do not use that field, I prefer notes of the fact or research logs), make a temporary view with all citation records, sort them by yyyymmddXX and overwrite the citationtable (with citationID IS null FROM the view, they should appear chronologically with xx to sort within days, I need to test). I could then always switch manually the sources by changing XX in RM and launch the "overwrite" query if I want to rearrange them. 

Rootsmagic with a lot of SQL queries (SQLiteSpy) and a bit of Family Historian 6.2 (tree view and map)

#7 Renee Zamora

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Posted 10 June 2019 - 02:38 PM

I copied the citation to put it in last position, then deleted it and had nothing to paste :(


Once you delete the source you memorized it will no longer be available to paste. Make sure to paste before you delete it.