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Christening gets included as a "Basic Event" when printing Family Group Sheets


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#1 Witterly

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 07:06 PM

I have noticed that when an individual has only their name (and no events like birth, marriage, death, ect.) RootsMagic includes a blank line for "Christening" on the Family Group Sheet. 

 

I'm pretty sure this is a bug, because once an event is added the line goes away. Is there any fix for this?

 

Thanks



#2 Renee Zamora

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 04:07 PM

It is designed to use the Christen fact as a replacement for a missing birth fact. It wouldn't appear if you added a birth fact. 


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#3 Witterly

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 11:06 AM

Is there a way to turn this feature off? If not, is there a way to request that a future release of RM include the ability to turn this off? Thanks.

#4 Renee Zamora

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 02:16 PM

You want to turn off the ability to use the Christen fact as a birth fact replacement? 


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#5 Witterly

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 02:35 PM

Correct. None of my family is Christian and they were confused when I sent them Family Group Sheets that contained a line for christening. While I do understand if this remains a default option (as perhaps the majority of RM users find this helpful), there should certainly be a way to turn it off.

#6 Renee Zamora

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 04:47 PM

Christening used as a birth replacement has many functions. If you do not want them to appear it would be best to add an about birth fact based on the Christen date to everyone that has one. I can add this to the enhancement list but this is a important feature of the program. 


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#7 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 06:40 PM

I can add this to the enhancement list but this is a important feature of the program. 

 

It is also an extremely controversial feature of the program.

 

On the one hand, Christening facts shouldn't be shoved down the throats of users of a religious culture or tradition where they are inappropriate. The handling of Christening facts should certainly be an option, although the default behavior could be as it is now. On the other hand, it is important in other religious cultures and traditions that Baptisms of infants be treated as surrogates for birth dates for age calculations the same way that Christening facts can be treated. I don't understand why there is such a resistance to these common sense enhancements that should be fairly easy to implement. And these enhancements should all be options so that no users have to use Christenings or infant Baptisms in ways that are uncomfortable.

 

Jerry



#8 Witterly

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 09:57 PM

Christening used as a birth replacement has many functions. If you do not want them to appear it would be best to add an about birth fact based on the Christen date to everyone that has one. I can add this to the enhancement list but this is a important feature of the program. 

 

I completely understand that this is an important feature to many (perhaps most) RootsMagic users. I'd even understand if this is the "default" behavior of the program. But frankly, I don't think it's fair to expect non-Christian users to have to add additional facts that they might not have, just to get Christian facts to disappear.

 

 

And these enhancements should all be options so that no users have to use Christenings or infant Baptisms in ways that are uncomfortable.

 

Totally agree with Jerry's comments. It's all about not making users feel uncomfortable.



#9 mjashby

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 06:10 AM

I would add to the list those Christian denominations that don't practice infant christening/baptisms, which, of course, includes the LDS, Baptists etc., not to mention the millions of Christenings/Baptisms that (probably) did take place but for which there is no documentary evidence.

 

I don't see a problem in software using a Christening/Baptism date as a proxy date for a non-existent birth providing a Christening/Baptism date has actually been entered but no birth information is recorded, however, where no such data has been entered, in my opinion, erroneous fact titles should not be shown in an individual records. 

 

I don't see any justification in the argument that a specific proxy fact is used by the software where a birth date is not entered as a valid reason for the unwanted appearance of invalid (presumptive) Fact Titles. There are plenty of genealogy products that have their own built in methods of estimating possible life span without the need to resort erroneous entries so the practice is simply not necessary and could be considered as disciminatory.

 

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#10 Renee Zamora

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 01:40 PM

Sorry not sure why I didn't think of this sooner. Go to Lists>Fact Type list, highlight Christen and click Edit. Under "Include when" uncheck the box for Family Group Sheets. The Christen fact will not appear on the family group sheet. 


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#11 Witterly

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 04:53 PM

Sorry not sure why I didn't think of this sooner. Go to Lists>Fact Type list, highlight Christen and click Edit. Under "Include when" uncheck the box for Family Group Sheets. The Christen fact will not appear on the family group sheet. 

 

Renee, 

 

I do appreciate your help in trying to fix this problem. While I tried what you suggested, the Christen fact still prints on reports. Just to be safe, I unchecked the box you suggested for both "Christen" and "Christen (Adult)," but neither seems to alter the output as you describe.



#12 Renee Zamora

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 05:11 PM

I tested this before I made that suggestion. I'm not sure why your Christen facts are still appearing then. It didn't make a difference if I checked the options: Basic events even if blank and Print basic facts only. Are you still printing a Family Group Sheet? There are different options for the various reports and lists. 


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#13 Witterly

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 05:35 PM

Are you still printing a Family Group Sheet?

 
Yes. 
 
This is a really easy problem to replicate. Just create a new tree with 2 individuals who are married to each other, and don't enter in any additional information other then their names (ie, no birth or death information). 
 
Creating a creating a Family Group Sheet report will include blank lines for "Chr." even if you uncheck the fields that you refer to in post # 10 of this thread.

 

 

 

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#14 Don Newcomb

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 06:28 PM

It's this way because that's how the GEDCOM standard was set up. There's a lot wrong with the fact type as it was established but a lot of people with different opinions were not consulted. 



#15 Witterly

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 08:53 PM

It's this way because that's how the GEDCOM standard was set up. There's a lot wrong with the fact type as it was established but a lot of people with different opinions were not consulted. 

 

I'm not sure I totally understand this. I realize there are many problems with GEDCOM, but I don't think there is some sort of requirement that if BIRT {BIRTH} is left empty, a blank CHR {CHRISTENING} tag gets erroneously added to the record. 

 

Note that when RootsMagic exports a GEDCOM from a tree that contains no Christening facts, there are no CHR tags (which is exactly how we would expect it to work).

 

...

0 @I1@ INDI
1 NAME John /Doe/
2 GIVN John
2 SURN Doe
1 SEX M
1 _UID 0E87CEFDBFB845518595353EAA4EA83ED81C
1 CHAN
2 DATE 6 FEB 2019
1 FAMS @F1@
0 @I2@ INDI
1 NAME Jane /Doe/
2 GIVN Jane
2 SURN Doe
1 SEX F
1 _UID DFB7420F0EE84C70B2CD4241BCDDBD8C7D19
1 CHAN
2 DATE 6 FEB 2019
1 FAMS @F1@
0 @F1@ FAM
1 HUSB @I1@
1 WIFE @I2@
1 MARR
...


#16 KFN

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:30 AM

Don,

GEDCOM does not require a Christening fact when a Birth fact is not provided.

The CHR fact (Christening) in GEDCOM is used for child related events, for an adult christening use the CHRA fact.

CHR {CHRISTENING}:=
The religious event (not LDS) of baptizing and/or naming a child.
CHRA {ADULT_CHRISTENING}:=
The religious event (not LDS) of baptizing and/or naming an adult person.

#17 Vyger

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 12:00 PM

Correct. None of my family is Christian and they were confused when I sent them Family Group Sheets that contained a line for christening. While I do understand if this remains a default option (as perhaps the majority of RM users find this helpful), there should certainly be a way to turn it off.

 

I understood this from the initial post and Witterly has went on to describe it in perfect detail, in my opinion Rootsmagic does need to think this one through as not all individuals or families are Christian. We do all have a Birth and Death, maybe not a Burial in some cultures and religions so I would suggest some simple options to recognize and embrace different cultures in the next version of Rootsmagic, checkboxes to identify Basic Facts important to the user seems a very simple ask.

 

I have to say I am finding Rootsmagic very dismissive of genuine user needs and interface problems lately, but maybe that is just me <_<


We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

User of Family Historian 6.2.7, Rootsmagic 7.6.2, Family Tree Maker 2014 & Legacy 7.5

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

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#18 Renee Zamora

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 01:14 PM

If the person has no facts then it will print that row because of the setting "Basic events even if blank". If you add a blank birth fact to the person then it will remove the Christen fact row if that option is excluded on the Fact Type settings for Family Group Sheets. 


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#19 Vyger

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 08:30 AM

If the person has no facts then it will print that row because of the setting "Basic events even if blank". If you add a blank birth fact to the person then it will remove the Christen fact row if that option is excluded on the Fact Type settings for Family Group Sheets. 

 

I believe the objection is that "Christening" appears as a basic fact and it is a Christian ceremony so exclusive of other cultures, so why not have the options for Namkaran, Aqiqah, Brit Milah etc?

It would be very easy to allow users to select the basic facts that are important to them and their culture including custom facts, such selection should also allow the deselection of Christian facts like Christening which, I believe, would satisfy Witterly and other non Christian family researchers.


We are all limited by our visions and abilities

Whilst we can borrow from the visions of others we cannot always deliver.

 

User of Family Historian 6.2.7, Rootsmagic 7.6.2, Family Tree Maker 2014 & Legacy 7.5

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

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#20 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 09:34 AM

 

I believe the objection is that "Christening" appears as a basic fact and it is a Christian ceremony so exclusive of other cultures, so why not have the options for Namkaran, Aqiqah, Brit Milah etc?

 

The objection is deeper than that. Christening appears as a basic RM fact and Christening (by that name) is not even embraced by all Christian cultures. In some Christian cultures it is not practiced at all and in other Christian cultures a similar activity is practiced for infants but it is called Baptism.

 

Irrespective of one's own religious beliefs and culture, many genealogical records are religious in nature. So I think you have to use and interpret data the way it is found. For example, I am neither a Quaker nor a Lutheran, but I make heavy use of both Quaker and Lutheran records from the Shenandoah Valley from the 1700's. I record the data as I find it, and Quaker dates are in what I consider to be an unconventional format. Similarly, there are church records that may be called Christenings OR that may be called Baptisms, which are events for infants which may be the best indication we have of when someone was born. I think we as genealogist should record such data the way we find it. And in the absence of a birth fact, it should be possible to use EITHER type of infant religious record for estimated age calculations for life events. We shouldn't have to call something a Baptism if it was a Christening in the records, and we shouldn't have to call something a Christening if it was a Baptism in the records.

 

I personally prefer also to add a birth fact for everybody, which solves a lot of the problems. For example, if I have a Baptism on 28 Feb 1704 which I know to have been an infant baptism, I might enter a birth fact with a birth date of "estimated 21 Feb 1704" with a note about how the estimate was made. Even better might be if I have a Baptism on 1 Feb 1704 which I know to have been an infant Baptism where I could enter a birth date of "estimated Jan 1704". But I respect that some users prefer not to enter a birth fact without explicit evidence for that birth fact.

 

Jerry