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Name Field in Source Templates


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#1 Paul Harris

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 10:50 AM

Perhaps the obvious escapes me, as it often does. However, I find it a bit perplexing when trying to use a Source Template for an Interview when trying to use the field for the Interviewee, which is the Name Type. My goal would be to enter a married woman's name with her maiden name in parentheses:

 

     Gertrude Elizabeth (Davis) North

 

If I enter the name as above, the Template output is:

 

     Gertrude Elizabeth "Davis" North

 

It seems to think that the contents of the parentheses is a Nickname.

I have tried preceding the opening parenthesis with a slash, but that does not work.

Any way to do this in a reasonable manner, or should I just drop the married name?

 

Perplexed

 

Best,

 

Paul



#2 Nettie

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 09:02 AM

I use (  ) in templates that I copied to make my own, so a copied Personal Knowledge,  let me in the footnote section use (   ) on a maiden name. and It works.   Or are you talking inside like the comments sections or detailed section. 

example  from Personal Knowledge template: "from personal knowledge of Erbes, Jean Lucille ( DeCourcy), Daughter of Claude DeCourcy; provided 1980's" 

 

I did an Interview  and the (   ) stayed.  Or are you talking when transferring it into a Word or document.  Should stay the same.... 


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#3 Paul Harris

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 02:49 PM

Hi Nettie,

 

I am talking about entering the name into the Name field in the Template. Yes, in the footnote it will let you enter Married Name, Given Name (Maiden Name), but when the Template reverses that for the Bibliography, you'll get ", Married Name Given Name (Maiden Name)." Not very useful.

 

The parentheses are only allowed to stick if they enclose the very last part of the name, otherwise, the parentheses switch to quotes when the first character is typed after the parentheses.



#4 TomH

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 10:28 PM

This is unverified but I vaguely recall that in a name field, you can define the 'surname' as any string lying between a pair of forward slashes. Try including the maiden name within the /surname/ and see if the parentheses are treated as literals.

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#5 zhangrau

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 06:07 AM

I routinely use the /slashes/ around the surname in the Author field of my Master Sources, and it works to properly delineate the name portions. This is particularly helpful when the surname has 2 or more portions, as in /de  la Vegas/.  I could not find a description of this behavior in the RM Help facility, although searching on "slash" did bring up a mention using slashes during adding an individual.....



#6 Paul Harris

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 08:15 AM

Tom and zhangrau, yes, that works, sort of...

 

In the footnote [Author] properly displays 

 

      Linda Mae (Begley) Bosland

 

But in the bibliography [Author:reverse] displays

 

     (Begley), Linda Mae Bosland

 

     But it should be listed as

 

          Bosland, Linda Mae (Begley)

 

Me thinks that the Name code used in Source Citations was never designed to list married women properly. I believe the only solution may be to create separate Text fields for Given Name, Last Name, and Maiden Name, and manually reverse the codes in the Bibliography:

 

Footnote: <[GivenName]>< ([MaidenName])>< [LastName]>

 

Bibliography: <[LastName]><, [GivenName]>< ([MaidenName])>

 

Surely, this isn't the first time anyone has had to deal with this issue in citing authored works!



#7 TomH

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 08:40 AM

That's as I expected. I suggest you use a different convention for maiden name that does not suffer from the nickname ambiguity:
Linda Mae /Bosland (nee Begley)/

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#8 Paul Harris

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 09:22 AM

That's as I expected. I suggest you use a different convention for maiden name that does not suffer from the nickname ambiguity:
Linda Mae /Bosland (nee Begley)/

 

In the Bibliography that would be listed as Bosland (nee Begley), Linda Mae, which is still not the preferred format. Already created the separate fields for one template and works just fine, fully complying with Mills model. This is why having the ability to create your own templates is so important to me, and RM, with all its faults and limitations, is probably the most powerful program out there for creating templates.

 

Footnote: Linda Mae (Begley) Bosland, daughter of Martin Begley and Dorothy Lambert, ([address,] Flower Mound, Texas), interview by Paul J. Harris Jr., 31 December 1991; transcribed directly into software privately held by interviewer, [address,] Raleigh, North Carolina, 1991.

 

Short Footnote: Linda Mae (Begley) Bosland, interview, 31 December 1991.

 

Bibliography: Bosland, Linda Mae (Begley). Flower Mound, Texas. Interview by Paul J. Harris Jr., 31 December 1991. Transcribed directly into software. Privately held by interviewer, [address for private use,] Raleigh, North Carolina. 1991.



#9 TomH

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 09:35 AM

My impression of the format is that parenthetical or quotation-marked names lying between the givens and surname are commonly interpreted as nicknames. So, although your template works as you want, your footnotes will be interpreted by some readers to mean that Begley is a nickname. The word "nee" removes any possible ambiguity.

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#10 mjashby

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 09:55 AM

But how would you expect the software to manage the following:

 

- Mary Adams, formerly Thompson, previously Jones, née Smith?  or 

- Mary Anne Evans (alternatively Mary Ann Evans, or Marian Evans), a.k,a. George Eliot (the author)?

 

Women, like men, don't always marry just the once; and may also have have used multiple variant names.  Also, whilst, at first, your examples may appear 'normal', not all nationalities, ethnicities, religions etc. use the same naming conventions before, during or after marriage, has has been discussed numerous times in this forum


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#11 zhangrau

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 10:04 AM

Use the /slashes/ to get RM to show the surname in the manner you prefer. I understand that it's not documented in the RM Help, but it WORKS.



#12 Paul Harris

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 11:02 AM

According to Mills EE,

 

2.70   NAMES, MAIDEN

The discipline of genealogy uses parentheses to distinguish the maiden 

names of married females. In the case of females who have a succession

of husbands, the parentheses should not be placed around the other

surnames she acquired by marriage—e.g.,

 

Hannah (Baskel) Phelps Phelps Hill

not

Hannah (Baskel) (Phelps) (Phelps) Hill

 

2.72   Quotation Marks

...

NICKNAMES

The genealogical convention for writing nicknames is to place them in

quotation marks immediately after the formal name for which they 

substitute—e.g., Margaret "Peg" Monroe.

 

3.39   School Records, Heirloom Copies

...

CITING NICKNAMES

As discussed in 2.72 and demonstrated above in note 1, nicknames

are conventionally placed in double quotation marks immediately after

the given name. They should not be placed in parentheses, because 

that convention is used for the maiden surname of females, as discussed 

in 3.20 and illustrated further at 3.37 and 3.40.

 

 

 

In the case of Mary Adams, formerly Thompson, previously Jones, née Smith, if I interpret the ambiguity correctly, would be listed as

 

     Mary (Smith) Jones Thompson Adams.

 

Of course, the Name Source Field Type cannot handle this situation in Source Templates. Breaking the name into three fields allows the appropriate arrangement for Source Citation.

 

<[GivenName]>< ([MaidenName])>< [LastNames]> 

   Mary (Smith) Jones Thompson Adams

 

or reversed

 

< [LastNames], ><[GivenName]>< ([MaidenName])>

    Jones Thompson Adams, Mary (Smith)

 

While I can't find a specific reference for it, I am doubtful that this would be an appropriate bibliographic entry with all three married names. I believe for Source Citation purposes that Mary (Smith) Adams and Adams, Mary (Smith) would be appropriate, but hey...



#13 Paul Harris

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 11:35 AM

But how would you expect the software to manage the following:

 

- Mary Adams, formerly Thompson, previously Jones, née Smith?  or 

- Mary Anne Evans (alternatively Mary Ann Evans, or Marian Evans), a.k,a. George Eliot (the author)?

 

Women, like men, don't always marry just the once; and may also have have used multiple variant names.  Also, whilst, at first, your examples may appear 'normal', not all nationalities, ethnicities, religions etc. use the same naming conventions before, during or after marriage, has has been discussed numerous times in this forum

 

Quite simply, I don't.  ;)



#14 TomH

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 12:56 PM

According to RootsMagic > Tools > File Options > Nickname format:

  • John "Jack" Kennedy, OR
  • John (Jack) Kennedy

Why is the parenthetical choice available? I surmise that it is a convention that people followed long before Mills, hence my point about ambiguity in using parentheses for the maiden name between the given and surname. I see little to no ambiguity in using it as a suffix and none, whatsoever if "nee" prefaces the maiden name wherever it is. The best location for it in RM's Name structure for people is the Suffix because of indexes in reports. 

  • Jacqueline "Jackie" Kennedy (nee Bouvier) is indexed as:
  • Kennedy, Jacqueline (nee Bouvier)   ... the nickname is unused and I chose "Jack" as the nickname format for added clarity in the report body.

I'm also an advocate of "Free Form" templates for storing sources in RM, using other templates to help compose the three sentences. I would be inclined to design the name fields for a source template to conform with those on the Edit Person screen and use them in exactly the same way. Thus no Maiden Name field because I would use the Suffix field for that purpose. I can't see Mills objecting - she is all about content, clarity and consistency among citations and less about style (form follows function). Moreover, she is not a computer programmer and did not bring that mindset to her rulebook so adaptation is necessary and expected.


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SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.