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#1 Patrick R

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 08:51 PM

I don't know what I'm doing wrong here, but it's a frustrating thing.  I'm using RM7 in Windows 10, and i'm getting inconsistent formatting in the dates.

 

When I type the date as 13 01 1950, it converts to13 Jan 1950, which is what I am expecting.

 

However, when I type the date as 12 01 1950, it converts to 1 Dec 1950, which is not what I am expecting.

 

I have the Set Date Format on Day/Month/Year, but it goes off the rails on me when I enter a day value of 1 to 12, it chooses that as the month.  It always then converts it into day/month/year format, but it is reading the input incorrectly.

 

What am I doing wrong?



#2 TomH

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 10:35 PM

I think the date format only affects the displayed and printed dates. It does not control the input format. You could input it as Jan 12 1950, 12 Jan 1950, 1 12 1950. I'm guessing that because RootsMagic developers are US-centred, they did not allow for the ambiguity of the latter with 12 01 1950, assuming that the majority of their users would not enter dates that way. They could have added a date entry filter with an option for all numeric dates to accommodate one style or the other. 

 

The Windows "Short Date" format does affect RootsMagic's interpretation of numerical date entries of the ambiguous forms:

 

n n nnnn

n nn nnnn

nn n nnnn

nn nn nnnn

where 01 <= nn <= 12

 

A "Short Date" format of "dd/MM/yyyy" interprets the first number as day and the second as month. I have not tried all of Windows "Short Date" settings but the typical default for US computers would flip the interpretation around. Even choosing "yyyy/MM/dd" for Short Date format results in an entry like "n n nnnn" to be interpreted as Month Day Year.


Edited by TomH, 02 December 2018 - 09:03 PM.

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#3 Trebor22

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 03:39 AM

I think the date format only affects the displayed and printed dates. It does not control the input format. You could input it as Jan 12 1950, 12 Jan 1950, 1 12 1950. I'm guessing that because RootsMagic developers are US-centred, they did not allow for the ambiguity of the latter with 12 01 1950, assuming that the majority of their users would not enter dates that way. They could have added a date entry filter with an option for all numeric dates to accommodate one style or the other. 

I have not tripped over this, presumably as I always enter dates in the 1 Jan 1950 format but if its as Tom suggests I would see this as a bug, I would have assumed RM would use date format of 'local settings' and / or have an option to set the date format - are we too late to fix in RM8?



#4 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 09:57 AM

Interesting discussion. I have long been an advocate for separating the way genealogical data is stored from the way genealogical data is displayed. The following is a considerable oversimplification and doesn't cover all the cases, but in a perfect world I think my theory would involve storing a date as something like month=1,day=5,year=1856. Said date could then be displayed as 1/5/1856 or 5/1/1856 depending on local conventions, or as 5 Jan 1856 or as 5 January 1856 depending on local conventions, or as 5 January 1856 or as 5 janvier 1856 depending on local conventions (and if I'm doing it correctly for French - I'm probably not).

 

This little discussion makes it clear that my little theory is incomplete. Instead, I should say we need to separate the way genealogical data is entered from the way genealogical data is stored from the way genealogical data is displayed. In the case of dates, I think that means that there should be date templates for input, that software should feel free to store dates any way it wishes internally, and that there should be date templates for output. The input and output templates for dates would need to include language tags.

 

That still begs the question of data exchange. One piece of software's output is another piece of software's input. Perhaps there should be a standard for data exchange that is something like the month=1,day=5,year=1856 idea. Of course, such an exchange standard would need to cover all the bases of Julian vs. Gregorian dates, quarter dates, approximate dates, estimated dates, before dates, after dates, date ranges, Quaker dates, etc.

 

Jerry

 

 

P.S. I would actually picture data exchange being done in more of an XML style or JSON style than in a keyword style. The exact details wouldn't matter as long as it covered all the cases. But nothing like this is ever going to happen because the intertia of not changing is so strong when it comes genealogy standards.

 



#5 zhangrau

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 10:40 AM

Date issues exist in LOTS of software, because different countries and regions hve developed their own ways to record dates.

 

I don't understand why anyone expects a piece of software to know what they "meant" to type - if we want the software to understand, we must provide input that is consistent WITH THAT SOFTWARE.

 

I have my Win 10 system date set to 2018-12-02 (largest to smallest unit), and RM displays dates as 02 Dec 2018. If I could get Win 10 to use the format I use in RM, I would do that. But the kids at Microsoft haven't provided that choice.



#6 TomH

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 11:14 AM

RM already stores dates in a format that is quite different from those it respects for input, from those it supports for display and reports and from those it supports for data exchange. See https://sqlite4roots...te Formats.htmlfor info on the internal formats. Here are 2 examples of a stored event date:

"D.+19091205..+00000000.." for Dec 5, 1909

"D-+18980000..+18990000.." for the range 1898-1899

 

The Sort Dates for these are, respectively:

"6704595973717360652"

"6698541512939012108"


Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#7 Patrick R

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 01:29 PM

One further note is that I use RMG on two different computers, the main one being my WIN 10 desktop and the secondary being a WIN 7 laptop.  The laptop does not have the problem.  Perhaps this is a new bug related to WIndows 10?



#8 kbens0n

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 02:52 PM

Perhaps this is a new bug related to WIndows 10?


If that were true, I would experience the same issue and I don't (using Windows 10). When I enter 12 01 1950... I get 12 Jan 1950 (as you hoped you would get). Not sure what could be going on for you, though. Maybe close the database, then Rootsmagic, then reopen both and immediately run File->Database tools from top to bottom (all four buttons). If that doesn't work, you may need to Reset Program Settings or Re-install Rootsmagic

---
--- "GENEALOGY, n. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." - Ambrose Bierce
--- "The trouble ain't what people don't know, it's what they know that ain't so." - Josh Billings
---Ô¿Ô---
K e V i N


#9 TomH

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 04:04 PM

When I enter 12 01 1950... I get 12 Jan 1950

Using Win 10 64b Home:
Enter              Display

12 01 1950      1 Dec 1950

12 1 1950        1 Dec 1950

1 12 1950        12 Jan 1950

01 12 1950      12 Jan 1950

4 5 1950          5 Apr 1950

04 05 1950      5 Apr 1950

4 05 1950        5 Apr 1950


Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#10 TomH

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 04:13 PM

So RM7 does follow the Windows Date format settings. I just changed mine and now:

 

Enter              Display

12 01 1950      12 Jan 1950

12 1 1950        12 Jan 1950

1 12 1950        1 Dec 1950

01 12 1950      1 Dec 1950

4 5 1950          4 May 1950

04 05 1950      4 May 1950

4 05 1950        4 May 1950

 

I changed both the Long format to "d-MMM-yy" and the Short format to "dd/MM/yyyy". Probably only the short format needs to be set that way.


Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#11 TomH

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 04:25 PM

Just discovered after so many years that I can input in Year Month Day sequence in the format 19500504 but not with any kind of separator such as 1950-05-04.


Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
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#12 kbens0n

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 05:30 PM

So RM7 does follow the Windows Date format settings. I just changed mine and now:


Good troubleshooting! So, *apparently* all Patrick needs to do is adjust his Date & time Formats:

-Right click Time & Date on far right of Task Bar
-Select <Adjust date/time>
-Scroll window to bottom and select <Change date and time formats>
-Adjust formats in boxes below <Short date> and <Long date>
-Observe how the Time & Date are displayed in Task Bar as changes are made.

---
--- "GENEALOGY, n. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." - Ambrose Bierce
--- "The trouble ain't what people don't know, it's what they know that ain't so." - Josh Billings
---Ô¿Ô---
K e V i N


#13 Patrick R

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 08:20 PM

kbens,

 

I'm a big believer (from painful experience) in the Law of Unintended Consequences, so before I make the changes I have to ask, do you know of any other applications that would be affected by this change?  Do you know if it might change the way dates in Excel spreadsheets or Access databases (of which I employ many) display or respond in data entry?

 

Too often if's been my experience with Microsoft that bugs are never as simple to correct as they seem, and they have a tendency to consider such bugs as "new features".



#14 kbens0n

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 09:46 PM

kbens,
 
I'm a big believer (from painful experience) in the Law of Unintended Consequences, so before I make the changes I have to ask, do you know of any other applications that would be affected by this change?  Do you know if it might change the way dates in Excel spreadsheets or Access databases (of which I employ many) display or respond in data entry?
 
Too often if's been my experience with Microsoft that bugs are never as simple to correct as they seem, and they have a tendency to consider such bugs as "new features".


No, I don't know what your current settings are as relates to the Windows defaults and understand your concerns. Follow the screens here https://www.isunshar...windows-10.html to restore them to original.

---
--- "GENEALOGY, n. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." - Ambrose Bierce
--- "The trouble ain't what people don't know, it's what they know that ain't so." - Josh Billings
---Ô¿Ô---
K e V i N


#15 Renee Zamora

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 03:35 PM

Go to Tools>Program Options>General and under "How to interpret ambiguous dates" select "5/10/1959 means 5 Oct 1959".


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