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name change adoption

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#1 fitz

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 05:27 AM

I would like to do a name change for an adoption.  If I put in birth name then do a name change to adopted name, at child's marriage the name is still birth name when it should be new name.  If I put in new name it is wrong name at birth.  Also on fact screen for sentence it says [N] and I am not sure where to put new name; tried note and it doesn't seem to work.  Since I have birth parents and birth date inserted and have marriage and all child's children, I need name to change as of a certain date.

 

Thanks



#2 zhangrau

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 05:38 AM

RM does NOT automatically change a person's display name for adoption, marriage or other legal name change. The Wish List contains multiple requests for RM to use the contents of the various dropdown menus for name type and parent type, but we don't know if that's really going to happen in the upcoming RMv8.

 

There are a couple options you can use:

 

1. You could enter the birth name as the display name and ignore any further changes. Clearly you don't like that option.

 

2. You can add an Alternate Name fact, with an appropriate Sort Date, for each of the person's name changes. This will put a sentence into the narrative for each of those facts. Unfortunately, RM does not use the info in the Name Type dropdown menu to modify each Alternate Name fact sentence. You may not like the appearance of those sentences.

 

3. You could locally edit edit Alternate Name sentence to resolve the unused dropdown menu selection. That has the disadvantage of being a not-clearly-visible decision in the Edit Person window, and it probably won't survice the GEDCOM eport/import processused to move your file to Ancestry, FamilySearch, etc.

 

4. You could create a custom Fact Type or use the Miscellaneous fact to insert sentences describing each name change. This might be the most flexible approach, in terms of visibility in the Edit Person screen. I don't know how it will be accepted by Ancestry, FamilySearch, etc.

 

You mention an [N] variable. RM has no such variable in its Sentence Template Language (see the RM Help for more on that topic). That makes me think your database started out in another program, maybe TMG?



#3 fitz

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 05:59 AM

Thank you.  Yes I started out in TMG.  I guess I will have to go with adopted name as that is most important to me and will have to do something with fact in birth family information.



#4 fitz

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 12:26 PM

Only 1 name shows in index.  Is there a way to have both names in index?  If I do alternate name both names show.  In TMG when I did change of name I then had a choice of name for marriage and both names showed in index.  Is there any way to have choice of which name to use.  Thank you.



#5 Vyger

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 02:48 PM


2. You can add an Alternate Name fact, with an appropriate Sort Date, for each of the person's name changes. This will put a sentence into the narrative for each of those facts. Unfortunately, RM does not use the info in the Name Type dropdown menu to modify each Alternate Name fact sentence. You may not like the appearance of those sentences.

 

 

Alternate Name would always be my choice and customize the sentence for that particular entry to something like;

 

[person] changed his name to [Desc] following his adoption< [Date]>.

 

Turn on the Index option to display Alternate Names and both variants will show.


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#6 fitz

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 04:06 AM

Thank you.  I will have to go with alternate name to get both names in index and will copy sentence from name change fact that it is legal name change.



#7 Don Newcomb

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 05:42 AM

Dealing with name changes is often a pain. It's hard to make automatic because there are so many ways names can change. RM assumes a traditional Anglo-American naming custom, where children get the birth surname of the father. There are many variations. The Spanish custom is to get the surnames of both the father and mother. In Scandinavia the child often got the given name of the father with "sson" or "sdoter" appended. Spellings change from generation to generation. People sometimes use multiple names (or spellings) at the same time.   It's hard to say if RM really needs a "Name Changed as of Date" feature where any references from that date stop using the old name and start using the new one.

 

I know that some people fight with their genealogy programs over changing the name of married women. It reminds me of someone fighting with a word processing program trying to get it to behave like a typewriter. As of a given date, Sally Smith transmogrifies into Mrs. John Jones. A very 1950s idea. 

 

Within RM, for now, the best way to handle the situation of a legal name change would be to customize the post-change sentences in the person's record. Hopefully this doesn't happen all that often.



#8 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 07:33 AM

Within RM, for now, the best way to handle the situation of a legal name change would be to customize the post-change sentences in the person's record. Hopefully this doesn't happen all that often.

 

That approach is good for reports but not so good for transferring data to other genealogy programs. I've got a real example (but I'm using made up names on this forum) where John Doe and Mary Smith had a son named William Andrew Doe. Shortly thereafter, John and Mary were divorced and a year or so later Mary married Thomas Smith. Shortly thereafter, Thomas adopted William Andrew Doe whose name was changed legally to William Andrew Smith. So how do you enter this data into RM so it makes sense in reports, so your evidence of what happened is properly referenced and attached, and so all of the above will transfer properly to other genealogy software? It's a difficult problem without a perfect solution. I think any reasonable solution would have to involve user defined facts and good fact notes. But for example, ancestry doesn't support fact notes.

 

I have many more similar examples. Alva Peters was known among his family as Alvy. All census records, deeds, and other such records including the family bible save one list his name as Alva. The exception is that his courthouse marriage record lists his name as Alvy, except that another place in the same marriage record his name is listed is Avy. The latter has to be a typo - not an alternate name and not a name change - but how is a researcher who is not extremely familiar supposed to understand the typo? Charles Lee (Charlie) Green was the son of William George Washington (Will) Green and Mary Mahala Jane (Mahala ot Haley) Bray. But Will and Mahala were divorced shortly after Charlie's birth and Charlie was raised by Mahala's parents and was known as Charlie Bray rather than Charlie Green. This is all according to family oral history. And indeed, all records for Charlie save one list his name as Charles Bray. But the 1900 census lists his name as Charles Green, living in the household of his mother Mahala and Mahala's second husband John Williamson rather than living with grandparents as reflected in oral family history. There is no court record of his name being changed from Green to Bray. How do you record and document all this? I have many more similar situations. For example, there is no one place that Mary Mahala Jane Bray's name is all put together and the documentation that she was known as Mahala or Haley is quite distinct from other documentation. This all has to be pieced together from multiple sources. There is no one place that William George Washington Green's name is all put together and the documentation that he was known as Will is quite distinct from other documentation. This all has to be pieced together from multiple sources. As I said, these are difficult problems to record and report and transfer, and genealogy software writ large doesn't have a very good solution.

 

Jerry



#9 Don Newcomb

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:44 AM

 

That approach is good for reports but not so good for transferring data to other genealogy programs. ..........and genealogy software writ large doesn't have a very good solution.

 

Jerry

 

Granted but you can add as many Alternate Name facts as you like. Up to and including "Frau Professor Doktor Johann Eisenbarth" if you like, including the effective dates. What the other genealogy program does with it is sort of beyond the scope of the discussion. Unless, that is, this is covered by the GEDCOM standard and is somehow not being implemented by RM (like SPFX is not implemented). 



#10 Vyger

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:07 AM

I have switched from Nickname to Alternate Name not only for the additional Index entry but also as the Magic Guide states Ancestry cannot handle the Nickname field.

 

My other main use for Alternate Name is 'Other Spelling' I have two main names with 4 main spelling variations through time and one variation is not a Soundex match. Thankfully I could auto create these and maybe spelling variations through time could be better handled in Rootsmagic through an automated option but even if the Index was sorted by Soundex this would not cover one of the names spelling variations I mentioned where the Alternate Names fact does.

 

I have not tested this but the Alternate Name fact does include Notes and Source, I usually use the Note for explanation and customize each sentence to suit. I have wished for the preview pane bottom right of the Edit Person screen to show how follow on notes will appear in reports and if the Alternate Name fact including Notes transfers by Gedcom then I can't see how this is not covered. Think we need RM input or someone with the time to test.

 

notes-enhancement.png

 

The above image is a mock up to describe an idea and not part of RM 7.5.5.0.


"Never, for the sake of peace and quiet, deny your own experience or convictions"

— Dag Hammarskjold

 

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#11 Vyger

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:11 AM

Just read this from Renee on another thread so it looks like Sources may well be lost....

 

 

We have an enhancement request to swap the Primary and Alternate Name. A while back I was testing this to be included in an update. It was pulled because you would lose the sources and media that connected to each of the names. General media and sources are not the same as media and sources for a fact. It might look like your swapping names but its different. It's something that is back to the drawing board. Might not be possible until we have a complete rewrite of RootsMagic. 


"Never, for the sake of peace and quiet, deny your own experience or convictions"

— Dag Hammarskjold

 

Current user of Rootsmagic version 7.5.7.0, Family Tree Maker 2014 and Legacy 7.5 on Win 10

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

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#12 fitz

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:38 PM

Thanks.  I just discovered a few days ago that TMG gave me a drop down menu with choice of alternate names to use for fact but don't know effect on sources, etc. I usually transcribe in source detail all the information from souce and I put in bold any slight difference in name.  I use a general note for major differences with explanatory sentence so I really haven't had a problem before. But I don't gedcom or do trees, etc. 



#13 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:56 PM

Just read this from Renee on another thread so it looks like Sources may well be lost....

 

Basically what Renee was saying that RM does not have a Name fact.

 

RM has general sources and general media. RM has Alternate Name sources and Alternate Name media. But because RM does not have a Name fact, it does not have Name sources and Name media.

 

If RM had a Name fact, then it would be easy to swap out a Name for an Alternate name without loss of sources or media. But it's not so easy to swap out general sources and media with Alternate Name sources and media because general sources and media cover things other than names. This can't be fixed until and unless RM supports a Name fact. We don't know if RM8 or any other future version of RM is going to support a Name fact.

 

Jerry



#14 Vyger

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 01:39 PM

Thanks Jerry, I understand perfectly now


"Never, for the sake of peace and quiet, deny your own experience or convictions"

— Dag Hammarskjold

 

Current user of Rootsmagic version 7.5.7.0, Family Tree Maker 2014 and Legacy 7.5 on Win 10

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

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#15 KFN

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 07:16 PM

Sorry for the following GEDCOM references.

If RM is trying to maintain some relationship to GEDCOM, the NAME tag is not considered a "fact" and therefore does not have all of the fact-like detail. It does allow for a NOTE and Source as part of the "name piece" as well as a surname prefix. Not having a way to indicate the from/to date range of a name has been a source of concern for me since I first became involved with GEDCOM back in the 80's.

To answer Don about alternate names, GEDCOM does not have an alternate name "per se" but has implemented a TYPE attribute that indicates what type of NAME tag we are presented with. GEDCOM has 5 predefined types but also allows for a user defined type as well. [ aka | birth | immigrant | maiden | married | <user defined>].

Also, as with all facts, additional/multiple NAME tags are valid but the first one is considered "primary". Some programs do not take into account that an individual can have multiple name tags and reads them all into the same data bucket, thus making the last, most undesirable name the one they use.

#16 fitz

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 04:22 AM

Thank you. Had to read and reread but think even I now understand.



#17 TomH

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 04:26 AM

Name and Alternate Name records in the database are in the same table. They both can have sources, notes, media, date but the UI only supports them on Alt Names. Although invisible to the user, those for the Primary Name are transmitted via GEDCOM and Drag'n'drop and, partly, through TreeShare.

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