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Memorized Sources not transferring to Ancestry thru Tree Share

Memorized Sources

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#1 Rick Landrum

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 02:24 PM

Quick Question

 

I have noticed that in cases where I "memorize" a source in RM, and then paste it into a new fact in another another person's record, the pasted source will not transfer from RM to Ancestry using Tree Share. The fact and notes will transfer, but not the source. 

 

I have tried multiple attempts and I get the same result. Is there something about having copied the source and then pasting it into the new record?

 

Of course, if I recreate the source in the new person's record, it will transfer through Tree Share to Ancestry, no problem.

 

Any insights appreciated.

 

Thanks

Rick

 


RickL


#2 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 02:53 PM

The situation you describe sounds impossible. After having been memorized and pasted, the newly pasted source is indistinguishable from the same source typed in by hand. Or at least it's indistinguishable in RM's Citation Table.

 

Well, upon further thought, TreeShare keeps track of changes to your RM database so it knows what to show you has changed between RM and ancestry. I wonder if a pasted citation is not recognized as a change by TreeShare.

 

Jerry



#3 Rick Landrum

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 03:46 PM

I'll run some tests to verify exactly what is happening, and the circumstances regarding Tree Share. However, not sure how to determine whether or not Tree Share recognizes the change.


RickL


#4 Rick Landrum

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 04:46 PM

Conducted another test -
 
First - used person A whose record appears in both RM and Ancestry. Beginning facts the same.
 
Second - created a test1 fact and memorized source data from another person in RM tree. Pasted source to test1 fact.
 
Third - added another test fact in RM from scratch. Included same date, description, note text, source, media as test fact1. Used the same source data as in second step but manually recreated.
 
Fourth - ran Tree Share for test person A. Added test fact1 and test fact2 as new facts to the same person in Ancestry.
 
Results - 
Test fact1 (created by pasting the source into the new fact in RM) - fact, date, notes, and media transferred OK, but source did not transfer.
Test fact2 (created from scratch in RM) - fact, date, notes, source, media all transferred fine.
 
Based on these results, and my previous tests, I would guess something is wrong with the TreeShare function in that it is apparently not recognizing a "pasted" source.
 
Any suggestions?
 
Thanks
 
-------------------------------------------
Clarification -  1/27/2018
As I continue to experience this issue, I have noticed a couple of additional things.
 
First - the problem appears to be somewhat intermittent. I have seen cases where the "memorized" source is uploaded by Tree Share to Ancestry with no problems, but most of the time the source either does not get uploaded, or it is simply added to the "other sources" category in Ancestry with no link to the fact/event.
 
Second - I am not seeing the "source" icon appear on the right hand side of the Tree Share screen after a fact/event with a pasted "memorized" source is added to Ancestry. Not seeing the source icon on the Tree Share screen (after adding the fact/event) had led me to think that the source did not upload. However, when I view the Ancestry record, the source has sometimes been added to the "other sources" category, but there is no linkage to the fact/event. 
 
Could the intermittent nature of this problem indicate some sort of a data transfer issue with the API?
 
--------------------------------------------

RickL


#5 TomH

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 10:54 PM

No suggestion, just surprised. And with my limited understanding of the database system, I can't understand why you get that result. I'd want to duplicate your test and track the changes in the database tables tolook for clues.

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#6 mjashby

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:51 AM

I would check the linked Ancestry Online Tree manually, i.e. via the Ancestry website.  If you have 'uploaded' a locally memorised/pasted source via TreeShare instead of actually adding the same Source information manually in the Online Tree, you will probably find that the Ancestry Tree has it showing as an uploaded 'local source' : These appear as a grey-coloured sources at the bottom of the 'normal' list of sources gained from Ancestry Searches/Matching. If this has happened the linked media will also have been uploaded to the online Media Folder as 'local media'.

 

I believe this is probably a RootsMagic <-> Ancestry Tree interface limitation as Ancestry Tree can't recognise that a 'newly entered' (locally copied) Source record passed from RootsMagic via TreeShare is actually derived from/linked to an already existing Source.

 

Mervyn


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#7 TomH

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 02:06 PM

I've concluded that the Memorise-Paste function needs a "simple" enhancement to maintain the same link from the pasted citation to the Ancestry Source as the original. For more see this FB discussion.


Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#8 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 07:01 AM

The whole memorize/paste function needs improvement anyway outside the context of TreeShare. There needs to be a way to "share" a citation (for lack of a better term) so that if anything about the citation changes all the "shared" instances of the citation receive the change.

 

The TreeShare problem is a new wrinkle. I've read the thread here and on FB several times. Let me see if I understand the problem correctly. In my use of TreeShare, I only make changes in RM and only "sync" (even though that's not the correct term) from RM to ancestry. In this environment, my understanding is that Memorized/Pasted citations are properly reflected to ancestry.

 

So my understanding is that the problem is in the other direction. If a citation comes into RM from ancestry via TreeShare and if that citation is then Memorized/Pasted in RM, then the newly Pasted citation is not reflected back to ancestry. Is that correct?

 

Jerry

 



#9 mjashby

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 09:40 AM

Yes, this is very messy - Sorry, but the description "Dog's Breakfast" comes to mind!

 

From my use of TreeShare I find that any citation copied and pasted within RootsMagic, regardless of its origin, is returned to Ancestry Tree as an external source, but NEVER as a 'link' to an already existing Source/Citation held on Ancestry Tree, if I attempt to upload/'synchronise' local changes via TreeShare. it appears to me that the result of copying and pasting a Citation in RM simply creates a duplicate (completely separate) Citation rather than providing a linking/shared Citation to the same Source.  That is evidenced by the fact that editing one of those RootsMagic Citation copiess has no impact whatsoever on any of the other copies of that Citation.

 

In contrast, FTM has some alternatives; i.e. a Citation can be copied/pasted exactly as in RootsMagic, providing separate/duplicate Citations as in Rootsmagic; or, alternatively it can be copied to another Person or Fact/Event as a 'direct link' to the same Citation, in which case editing any of the linked Citations will impacts on all of the linked copies of that Citation.

 

For me the only successful work around has been to directly edit/copy Citations within Ancestry Tree to achieve 'correct' synchronisation with the data recorded in RootsMagic; and also to avoid adding ghost/duplicated local Citations and Media records in Ancestry Tree.

 

This seems similar to the impact of synchronising Census Records separately to several individuals recorded in that same Household or on the same Census Page; i.e. Duplicate copies of the Source Records and Media are downloaded.  I tend to synchronise only one Census entry for a Census Page via TreeShare and then copy the shared Facts/Events (and also Copy/Paste the Citation) to the other members of the same Household, which achieves the desired synchronised events without having to delete duplicate media and then 'correct' all of the duplicated Sources/Citations created by TreeShare.  This still leaves some issues with Census records that don't record Household relationships, such as the 1841 UK (England & Wales) Census (and presumably the earlier US Censuses) as Ancestry/Ancestry Tree uses individual Citations for each individual on those Census Pages, i.e. the Page & Line Number is recorded for each Individual in their Citation. However, it's pretty straightforward to edit the individual Line Number, once you realise that that's why the Media Record shows up as not matching in TreeShare.

 

It's a pain to get right, but having spent hours/weeks/months in Records Offices since the early 1990s manually searching for that elusive piece of information 'sans' indexes, perhaps I'm a little more accepting of the fact that 'real' Family History research isn't just about gaining the instant gratification that Ancestry.com's advertising would have us believe.

 

Mervyn


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#10 TomH

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 10:49 AM

I've developed a demonstration script that proves (to me at least) that RootsMagic developers could enhance the Memorize-Paste function to preserve the linkage for a pasted Ancestry Source. Also for a pasted Other Source although that might get confounded because of its dual use for Notes. And, Jerry, it is also an example of where a database redesign to accommodate the Master Citation table concept with a CitationLinkTable to connect to people, events would be beneficial by not requiring any additional records in the LinkAncestryTable.

 

See TreeShare - Link Pasted Ancestry Sources.


Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#11 Rick Landrum

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 10:57 AM

Jerry,
No, I'm actually seeing the problem from the other direction (RM to Ancestry). Here is an example of what I have been doing.

Because RM does not currently have a "fact copy/paste" function, and because "fact sharing" does not work well, or at all, when sharing between software platforms, I have been experimenting with using "memorized" sources to create new fact/events for other persons in my tree.

Example -
A person in my tree has a residence event supported by a census record. The census family consists of a father, mother, and child. After creating the residence fact/event for the father, I then ceate new events for the mother and for the child using the same fact type and date. Next I copy the place, description and any fact notes and paste them into the source details/comments of the fathers fact/source. I then "memorize" the source and paste it into the source box for the new events for the mother and for the child. I can then copy the place, description, fact notes, etc. from the source comments to the appropriate fields for each person. (This prevents having to go back to the father's event to copy them.) If there was a media image of the census, I usually attach it to the source so it will also be copied and pasted with the source.

This works great in RM (still a lot of steps but better than having to create the event and source from scratch for each person, especially when there are many children etc). However, when I use Tree Share to try and upload one of the events to a person on Ancestry, the source either does not make it across, or it goes into "other sources" with no attachment to the event.

Sorry if I have kicked over an old can of worms.....

Thanks
Rick

RickL


#12 TomH

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 11:21 AM

So my understanding is that the problem is in the other direction. If a citation comes into RM from ancestry via TreeShare and if that citation is then Memorized/Pasted in RM, then the newly Pasted citation is not reflected back to ancestry. Is that correct?

Yes. The pasted citation of the TreeShare linked Ancestry Source becomes an "Other Source" when TreeShare Updated to the Ancestry Tree.


Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#13 Rick Landrum

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 01:18 PM

Just to be clear - If I'm understanding what is being said -
I'm having this problem with sources created from scratch in RM, memorized and pasted into
another person's record in RM, and then uploaded to Ancestry from RM using Tree Share.

In most cases, the original source was not downloaded from Ancestry first and then memorized and saved to another
persons record in RM before being uploaded to Ancestry via Tree Share.

However, I do have some sources that were downloaded to RM first, then memorized, pasted to another person's record, and then uploaded to Ancestry via Tree Share. I believe I'm seeing the same result in Ancestry in both scenarios.
Thanks
Rick

RickL


#14 TomH

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 02:45 PM

Sorry if it seems that I hijacked the discussion, Rick. A parallel discussion on FB was focussed on the Ancestry Sources being pasted and transformed into Other Sources on upload. That's where I started from because it was systemic, not seemingly intermittent as in your case with RM created sources. However, the cause is fundamentally the same: the failure of RM development to adapt Mem-Paste to support the TreeShare links when pasting copies of already linked citations.

 

My experimental script does retrofit the needed links for both cases but can produce multiple such link records for RM created sources. This may result in multiple copies of the same Other Source on the Ancestry Tree side. That wouldn't be the case if it could unambiguously identify the one citation that had been memorised to produce an unlinked citation. The Mem-Paste function would not have that difficulty.


Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#15 Rick Landrum

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 04:17 PM

OK, got it. Sounds like others are aware. Maybe this can be fixed down the road. I'll just continue to fix manually after the tree share upload if necessary.
Thanks for the explanation.

RickL


#16 TomH

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 09:41 PM

Rick, I now have an inkling of the sporadic behaviour you reported at the outset for locally created sources when uploaded to Ancestry. I observe that only some of the time is a corresponding record created in the LinkAncestryTable which is the key to linking that local citation to the "Other Source" in the Ancestry Member Tree. I don't yet observe any pattern to the behaviour.

 

I've also had to revise my script to exclude any attempt at linking pasted copies of a linked "Other Source" as these links seem to be person dependent. It might be okay for those pasted to the same person to receive the same link value but giving those pasted to another person the original link value seem to upload into a black hole but still get counted on the Ancestry side of TreeShare.


Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
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#17 Rick Landrum

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 09:25 AM

Tom,
Thanks for the update. It seems I have walked into a mess. I'm sure it will get fixed eventually. The whole reason I was trying to use memorized sources to begin with is because "shared" facts don't upload to A.com, and you can't copy/paste facts. It was a temporary attempt to find a quicker way to replicate facts to other members of my RM tree. The other major pain I have is that the "abstract" data associated with an A.com source does not download to RM and I have to manually copy paste to get it into RM. It's like at every step there are new roadblocks or bugs. Hate to sound frustrated but I'm just going to focus, for now, on getting my RM tree right and I'll deal with all A.com stuff later.
Thanks again
Rick

RickL


#18 Rick Landrum

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 09:33 AM

Having read through all the postings on this topic again, I would like to revisit a question I have had for some time.

What is the best way to handle census (or "residence" if you prefer) records when adding them to all the members of a family?

For example, I load person A's (the head) census record in RM as a residence event. I use the census record as the source and attach any availabale media. I then need to replicate this census event for all the other members of that family household. Because there is no fact copy function in RM, and because the fact sharing function creates all sorts of problems when updatng other software platforms like Ancestry (although this really works sweet in RM) , I'm left with only one choice, manually recreating the census event for each listed family member. This is very redundant, error prone, and time consuming. I have tried to memorize and paste the census source to other family members to at least save that step, but then I'm running into the "copied source" issues when I try to use Tree Share to upload the data from RM to Ancestry. So, it seems I'm back to the manual recreation option, which duplicates source and media records. I'm stumped.

Does anyone have a different suggestion on how to handle this mess?

Any hints would be appreciated.

Thanks
Rick

RickL


#19 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 02:27 PM

You are going to get many and conflicting opinions. I make no claim that my opinion is any better than anybody else's. Indeed, it probably it probably isn't as good as lots of other opinions. But here it is, for whatever it's worth.

  • People regularly ask on these forums if a census record is a source or a fact (or an event, which is somewhat synonymous with a fact). I tend to think it's both. A census record can obviously be a source for a person's name, birth date, birth place, sex, occupation, family relationships, and several other things i'm probably not thinking of right now. But I also think that a census record can validly be thought of as a life event in it's own right, e.g., John Doe age 2 was enumerated along with his parents Samuel Doe and Elizabeth Smith in the household of his grandfather William Doe in the 1850 census in Bell County, Kentucky. And as such, I enter census data into RM both as a census fact and as a source for the census fact. It seems to me that doing it this way makes the residence fact redundant, so I don't use the residence fact.
  • I like the way a census fact reads in a narrative report to be customized and different for each different individual in a family grouping. Before RM's shared facts came along, I therefore entered a new census fact from scratch for each family member in a given census entry. I memorize and paste the citation, so citation doesn't have to be recreated for each family member.
  • When RM introduced the shared fact feature, I played around with using the shared fact feature to enter census data. Even when facts are shared, the shared fact can be customized for each sharee. But I discovered that it was taking me as much or more time to customize a shared census fact for each sharee as it would have taken just to do it the old way where I started the census fact for each individual from scratch. So I decided to stick with the old way and not to use shared facts for entering census data. This was before I realized how many problems shared facts present when transferring RM data to other genealogy software.
  • After I did realize how many problems shared facts present when transferring RM data to other genealogy software, I patted myself on the back for lucking out in my choice not to use shared census facts.

If you really do want to copy census fact or any other facts to multiple people, there is sort of a very clunky way to do it. The clunky process is a little easier if you do a little advance planning. So suppose you are about to enter a census fact that you want to copy to multiple people. Create a new and empty RM database and have it open side by side with your real database. In the new and empty database, enter a dummy person in the new and empty database with a first name of Dummy and a last name of Person (or any other first and last name of you choice). Enter your census fact into the dummy person, including the appropriate citation information. Repeat the following for each person in your real database who needs the census entry: 1) drag and drop the dummy person from the temporary database to your real database, 2) merge the dummy person who is now in your real database into the person in your real database who needs the census fact, and 3) delete Dummy Person as an Alternate Name from the person who now has the census fact. When you are done with all that, just delete  your temporary database. You will have successfully copied your census fact to each person who needs it.

 

Jerry



#20 Rick Landrum

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 03:42 PM

Thanks Jerry,
I'm thinking over what you said, and may test the "clunky" method to see how that goes. Not sure that the clunky idea may take any longer than just creating individual facts for each family member, may even take less.

A friend suggested another idea. Create census facts only for the 'head" of the family. Then add a census fact with a date and place, but no source, for each person listed in the census. Also add a reference fact note to the census fact and refer back to the head of the family details, source, and media. This fact and note would transfer to Ancestry through Tree Share OK. However, the family members would not actually have a sourced census fact and media. It also could not be modified for family member specific information except in the fact notes. However, there would only be one source and one set of media.

After mulling this idea over, I think I like the "clunky" method better.

Thanks again for the input.

Rick

RickL