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#1 Putzer

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 10:00 AM

What should be put in the fact place field for United States before 1776.

#2 Renee Zamora

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 10:31 AM

CountyCheck will suggest British America.


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#3 Don Newcomb

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Posted 26 June 2016 - 07:25 AM

Interesting question. Philosophical answer. Are you interested in finding the place today or using the name that was in use at the time? Was someone born in London, UK; London, England; London, Mercia or Londinium in the Roman province of Britian?



#4 Putzer

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Posted 26 June 2016 - 03:40 PM

Thank you both for your responses



#5 daragon24

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 05:27 AM

I've actually been trying to figure this out myself and have been doing much research on Data Entry Standards. Data Entry as far as places go seem to have no set in stone standard even though some people claim there to be. Some people use the name of the place as it is today so they can map it, while they put the name of the place in the past in the notes. Others use the old place name while putting today's in the note field. As far as country goes when it comes to America, I have seen people leave off at the state, I've seen people use British America, or American Colonies, English Colonies, etc. In my opinion after reading over varying materials it all comes down to what you want to do with your data.



#6 KFN

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 02:37 PM

Daragon24,

I agree with your statement. As a data and information specialist, knowledge management and librarian science graduate, it is all about how the user needs to find and use the data, and without a database that supports multiple indexes for place, it is up to the data user. BUT BE CONSISTANT. If some places have countries then all should have countries. If some use the present location then all should use present location, and change them when the map requires the change.

I would rather my visitors find the place on the current map, than try to find a map of Europe or the USA from a specific date, then get confused when the next generation of family are born in a different city or country because a war just change the map and the same town is now in a different country with a different town spelling too.

#7 TomH

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 08:11 PM

The geographic coordinates for the house remain constant despite changes in the municipal or country name. In RootsMagic, I keep the Standardized name current, which is what drives geocoding and use the historical name for display and reporting. Thus the Bing map returned for a location is the same regardless of the historical name but the events in reports are described in their period which is more colourful and adds variety to the story.

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#8 Vyger

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Posted 06 July 2016 - 04:48 AM

The geographic coordinates for the house remain constant despite changes in the municipal or country name. In RootsMagic, I keep the Standardized name current, which is what drives geocoding and use the historical name for display and reporting. Thus the Bing map returned for a location is the same regardless of the historical name but the events in reports are described in their period which is more colourful and adds variety to the story.

 

This is an important issue regarding these historical notations or not and also the preference of one user to use the state abbreviation, another to use full state name, leaving off the United States for places within US et al

 

The problem is all these variations are distinctly different facts and RM currently uses this user preferred place notation for duplicate searching rather than the Standardized Place Name which, as TomH states, remains constant.

 

I would like to see a future version of RM using DSM logic based on the Standardized Place Name, where it exists, rather than the Place field which is infinitely open to variations.


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#9 Serenity20061

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 08:16 PM

I too have struggled with Place Names.  I have used several different genealogy software programs over the years and have yet to find one that adequately addresses the changes that place names have over time.  I am researching an area that transitioned from several different territories over time before the current state/county structure was established.  One family lived in the same house through the birth of all of their children but have 3 different "states" showing up as place of birth for children due to changes in boundaries.  I want to be able to use current geocode location for mapping and planning research trips. 

 

I have already discovered that "standard" place names vary with the software used.  (i.e. Ancestry and Roots Magic define standardized place names differently).  I have a large number of people who live outside of city limits and show up on census records based on the township and not the city.  The "standardized" place names just don't like townships and I always have to fix the geo-coding on them. 

 

I like the way RM allows me to add notes and media for a place. I would love to see this expanded further.  My "wish" for how places are handled would be geo-code based places that treat places similar to the way we treat people. --- the ability to add "alternate place names", events, media, research notes, etc. the same way we add alternate names, events, and media to people.  Relationships between places would allow for parsing City, Township, County, State, Country, etc.  Adding events to a place would allow rich historical timelines of a place to include in our stories.  Associating repositories and sources to the places would allow the creation of a robust research tool.  Place specific events such as "court house fire" would assist in identifying where primary records will be more difficult to find for early ancestors in that location.  Events that are associated with places rather than people are the year the earliest records are available for births, marriage, wills, etc.  For cemeteries, it would be nice to indicate what year the earliest or last burial in the cemetery.  No more wasting time hunting for a relative that died 20 years before a cemetery opened.  A robust place component to a tree would save time preparing for research trips and doing research in general. 

 

For example, the town of Xenia, Ohio has been hit twice by major tornados over the years that destroyed a significant portion of the town each time.  How do you attach the media files, stories, and events in the tree when no specific person is named in a newspaper article found about such an event or the photos of the event? If it is one or two people in the tree, no problem, but I have been working on a location-based tree with over 90,000 people associated to the county.  Adding the event and media to each person who lived in the location at the time of specific events just bogs down my database.  I would much rather have the ability to click on the place name to get more information to enhance the person's story or give insight into events that may have shaped the lives of the people I am researching.  When I find a new source for a person in the tree that ties to a location, the location timeline would provide a wealth of information that may lead to new discoveries for that person or family. 

 

Yes, I know -- the dinosaur in the mix -- GEDCOM.  The solution, add a GEDCOM PLACE NAME field as the PRIMARY place name for importing and exporting.  Most of the place notes and media don't transfer in GEDCOM anyway.  I would just like to have a genealogy program and research tool that gives me a way to track it all in one place instead of having research spread out amongst multiple programs and tools that are completely limited by GEDCOM.  Build for the import/export, but don't exclude features because they "aren't GEDCOM friendly".  I have heard about "a new standard" coming for the past 30 years and still we are tied to GEDCOM.  I think it is time for a company to build a software that IS the new standard.



#10 Vyger

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 05:41 AM

I believe this issue could be partly negated by an option within Rootsmagic only to search and compare Place names to a user defined depth or comma delimitation.

 

It's well known that some users use "United States", some "US" some "USA" and some leave the Country off, some only when that applies to their home Country. There are so many personal variations of Place notation this becomes a minefield for comparisons of possible duplicate persons and the like.

 

An Option to search and compare Places to a user prescribed depth or comma delimitation would go a long way to overcoming the problems born out of differing personal preferences in Place notation and a competitor has already introduced some such options within their duplicate searching, see below.

 

dsm-extra-merge-options.png 


Keeping ones customers and their important views at a distance is never a good approach

 

User of Family Historian 6.2.7, Rootsmagic 7.6.3, Family Tree Maker 2014 & Legacy 7.5

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

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