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#1 fitz

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 07:16 AM

When I started in TMG the way to enter author's name in source was surname then a , then first name.  In later editions of TMG I could enter that way or first name and then surname, and it came out correctly in footnote no matter which way I entered it.  In RM my old citations are coming out as entered with surname then a , then first name while the newer versions are first name and then surname.  Also in short footnote, RM is putting in whole name (the way it is in full footnote) but in all journals I read, only surname is listed in short footnote and also just surname is listed according to "Evidence Citation & Analysis for the Family Historian" by Elizabeth Shown Mills.

 

In any event how do I get author's name to come out corectly?  Thank you 



#2 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 08:29 AM

There are a number of different source templates for books in RM. Some of them list author's name one way and some the other. This is by design, because sometimes the author is a real person and sometimes the author is an organization such as the "Boondock County Genealogical Society". You never want "Boondock County Genealogical Society" to come out as "Society, Boondock County Genealogical". Also, the way the author's name is listed can differ in the source templates between the footnote and the bibliography, where the author's name is first name first in the footnote and last name first in the bibliography. Another complication is when there are multiple authors. So if you are using RM's built-in source templates, look at the sentence templates. And if the TMG import process created a user defined source template for you, look at the user defined source template created for you by the TMG import process. (I don't really know how the TMG import process deals with source templates - it may be using the free form source template.)

 

For a variety of reasons, I use source templates of my own design rather than the built-in source templates and rather than the free form source template. Rather than having multiple source templates to deal with issues of author's first name first vs. author's last name first, I use a value switch in my templates to control the order of the first and last name of the author.

 

Jerry

 



#3 fitz

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 10:42 AM

I tried adding a new source with the RM book, general (author known ) using author Smith, John and a second time with John Smith. The first one came out  Smith John (no comma)  and no name in short footnote and the second time John Smith.   I don't think I ever created a template (wouldn't know how) I just used the standard ones so I don't know about that.  So RM evidently just uses what is entered.  When RM imported, it left authors as say Smith, John if I entered it that way.  I have a lot of sources where the author was entered with surname first followed by comma and then first name so I guess I have a real problem.



#4 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 12:14 PM

When RM imported, it left authors as say Smith, John if I entered it that way. 

 

Which source template was used? If you are looking at any Edit Source screen, the name of the template will be in the upper right hand corner of the window.

 

Jerry



#5 fitz

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 12:53 PM

One that was imported was _TMG_Book(Authored) another was _TMG_Book(Reprint).  The one created using RM was Book, General(Author(s)known).  I tried Book, Reprint (Author(s) known) doing it both ways.  Same problem.  It puts name in the way it is entered and if surname then comma then first name, it leaves out comma and then the name is not appearing in short footnote.  I am looking at the screen but am presuming that is way it will print out in report.



#6 TomH

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 04:49 PM

The Book, General(Author(s)known) template uses [Author] in the Footnote, [Author:Surname] in the Short Footnote and [Author:Reverse] in the Bibliography. It expects the entry in the Author field to be "John Smith". It extracts the surname as the string after the last non-trailing space character. The Reverse modifier puts the surname first followed by a comma and space then the preceding part of the string.


Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#7 craigg

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 06:04 PM

What I have done since, I think Family Origins, is to enclose what I wanted treated as the last name in slashe's.

'Henry John /thompson/' makes 'thompson' to be treated as the last name.
'/The daily gazette/' makes 'The daily gazette' to be treated as the last name.
Henry /john thompson/' makes 'john thompson' to be treated as the last name.

#8 TomH

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 06:16 PM

That is true but "/Thompson/, Henry John" or any out-of-normal-order fails in the Footnote for which RM merely strips out the slashes. The slashes are really only constructive when the surname comprises more than one word. (Maybe it is helpful as well for cultures in which the family name comes first normally).


Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#9 fitz

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 03:47 AM

I guess that for all my old sources where in TMG I put say Smith, John they would have to be changed manually.  Thank you all but I think I will have to go back to TMG just too many problems.  



#10 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 08:33 PM

I've been thinking about this problem a little bit more. It sounds like the source template that RM's import process built for you includes [Author:Reverse]. If you are willing to do just a minor bit of editing, you could change this template to say just [Author]. Having done so, your TMG sources should print correctly. Also, you could then continue to use this template for sources you add in the future rather than using RM's template. You would enter the author as Lastname, Firstname, just like you did in TMG.

 

Jerry



#11 fitz

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 02:49 AM

Thank you.  But in TMG I have them both ways.  In early version of TMG you put author in surame first then comma and then in later version I could do either way so I put in surname last.  I do have _TMG_Book (Authored) listed 3 times under sources and _TMG_Article (Journal) listed 17 times don't know what that means.  I am working on correcting doubledating problem caused by RM changing the dates (I know they corrected in update but that came too late for me) and this new problem is just too much.



#12 ketchell

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 10:30 PM

Was this ever resolved? I have the same problem except all of my TMG author are entered "Surname, Firstname" without the quotes in TMG. TMG automatically converted this to Firstname Surname as footnote, Surname as short footnote, and Surname, Firstname for bibliography. I tested using the basic book format and a print article template in RM and if I entered the author's name as "Firstname Surname" then RM will do the same thing. With Surname, Firstname all three footnote/short/biblio are exactly as entered Surname, Firstname. I tried using Author:Reverse for footnote and that doesn't work. Next I tried changing my author name to the apparent RM standard "Firstname Surname" and that doesn't work either -- it puts the full Firstname Surname exactly as entered in footnote/short/biblio. I would assume then it has something to do with how RM imported the author's name? TMG standard entry recommendation was Surname, Firstname so not sure how RM imported other than it appears the same. 

 

Any ideas from TMG to RM experts as to why this is imported this way and is there any way to fix it since I would have to change not only the author name in all my sources (a lot) plus my imported TMG templates (which I want to keep) would all have to be changed and since you cannot change a template type in RM, that would mean going outside of RM into SQL to find some kind of fix.

 

Or maybe I'm missing something?



#13 ketchell

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 11:12 PM

Re: above about resolution of the author imported from TMG. I discovered that I needed to change the TMG template imported into RM so that AUTHOR is a name field. Then I needed to edit the source template to author:surname in short and author:reverse in biblio. Then everything worked fine. However, that would mean manually re-entering every author in all my sources. Not an pleasant task. I did try after making the changes but not changing the entry (left it Surname, Firstname) and using author:reverse in the footnote and author:surname in the short footnote; and that did not work. 

 

Does RM only work if the author/creator name fields are Firstname, Surname order? And if so, is there any way in TMG before importing or in RM using SQL to make all my Surname, Firstname entries into the RM required format?



#14 TomH

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:38 AM

If RM imported the reversed name into the Author field, then it should be feasible with a SQLite script to find all instances having a comma and flip them.

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#15 TomH

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 09:31 PM

Here's a SQLite script that will batch unreverse reversed names in the Author field of templated sources. Sources - Unreverse Author Names


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#16 ketchell

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 10:22 AM

Tom, wow thanks for confirming problem and coming up with a fix so fast! Sent an email to RM and as yet no reponse.

I am a total novice to SQL. Will try this script as my first. Installing SQLSpy now.

I do have multi-authored sources. Should be able to run a simple report in TMG to ID this small group of sources and do a manual edit in RM, so not worried about the potential mangling for multi-authored.

I wish the RM manual would specify clearly data entry issues like this. The manual also does not say how to enter multiple authors. TMG required a semicolon between each. Do you know the RM requirement?

#17 ketchell

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 10:36 AM

I think I found the answer on multi-authored by trying to edit an RM template on books and in the author field it says:

 

Separate multiple authors with a semicolon, like this: John Doe;Bill Smith;David Jones

 

Want to confirm this is the correct and best practice before making changes. Thanks.



#18 ketchell

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 11:17 AM

Tom,

 

Big Wow. Saved a huge amount of time. Instantly. I copy/pasted the script, and Done. 

 

SQLSpy said 653 were changed. Not sure if the multi-authored showed up in this count or not (mangled or not). 

 

I did a TMG source author search for contains "," and had 657 results. I did a search for contains ";" (multi-authored) and it had 51 results.

 

Will need to do some checking but for a bulk change this was fantastic. Thanks!

 

Debra



#19 ketchell

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 11:39 AM

How do I create a report of all sources that contain a semicolon in the Author field?

 

Easy to do in TMG. Attempting to see if I can replicate source part reports in RM, or if I need to do all the editing in TMG.



#20 TomH

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 11:40 AM

You jumped ahead quickly, Debra. I was thinking about putting in a restriction to prevent changes to multi-name Author fields (by detecting the semi-colon or a second comma). It would take higher-level programming than I can do to process them. Also, the script does not touch any Name-type fields other than Author, and only those that Are in the Master Source. If there is an Author field in Source Details (CitationTable), it is untouched.


Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.