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#1 DerickH

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 09:29 AM

I use FamilySearch extensively to fill in my missing sources and to extend my families. The only problem I encounter is when I look up a name in my database, FamilySearch fails to list the birth place, making it necessary for me to add it to the blank space in FamilySearch and hit "Update.". Is this an RM problem or is this a FamilySearch problem?

#2 Vyger

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 09:36 AM

I use FamilySearch extensively to fill in my missing sources and to extend my families. The only problem I encounter is when I look up a name in my database, FamilySearch fails to list the birth place, making it necessary for me to add it to the blank space in FamilySearch and hit "Update.". Is this an RM problem or is this a FamilySearch problem?

 

DerickH, I don't use RM7 but was the recent update to 7.0.8.0 anything to do with this?


Overcome the negatives, then only positives and praise remains.....

 

 

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#3 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 01:36 PM

 

DerickH, I don't use RM7 but was the recent update to 7.0.8.0 anything to do with this?

 

That's a very interesting question.

 

RM actually supports three place names for each place.

  1. The "main" place name - the one that you enter in whatever format you enter it in.
  2. A standardized place name. RM puts this in for you, and I don't understand exactly when it is inserted or updated by RM (e.g., the standardized name would need to updated if the user changed the "main" place name). i do not believe that the standardized place name is supported in the Sentence Template Language.
  3. An abbreviated place name. I think this name exists only if the user types it in. This name is supported in the Sentence Template Language as [Place:short].

Given this support for three different formats for each place name in RM, I've been curious how these three items interact with the new FSFT support in Version 7.0.8.0. My suspicion is that RM is sending over the standardized place name that's stored in the users's RM database as the place name to be used as the standardized place name in FSFT. Is that the way it's really working? If so, then you should be able to look in your RM database with Lists->Place List to investigate what's going on.

 

By the way, I have played around with editing the standardized place name within RM. RM doesn't seem to object, even if I change the name to something that is non-standard. I would be very interested understanding both how RM processes the standardized place name internally and how the place names in RM interact with the place names in FSFT after the 7.0.8.0 update.

 

Jerry



#4 Renee Zamora

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 02:04 PM

Here is what the RootsMagican told me is the order for Standardizing a place.

It should send a normalized place to FamilySearch when adding or updating a fact.
It will base the normalized place on the following:
1. If the place has a normalized value defined already (from geocoding or whatever), it will send that.
2. Otherwise it will use the place database to try and obtain a normalized place for the place the user entered.
3. Otherwise it will just send the original place as the normalized place as well.


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#5 Renee Zamora

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 02:07 PM

I use FamilySearch extensively to fill in my missing sources and to extend my families. The only problem I encounter is when I look up a name in my database, FamilySearch fails to list the birth place, making it necessary for me to add it to the blank space in FamilySearch and hit "Update.". Is this an RM problem or is this a FamilySearch problem?

 

I am not sure where you mean you are not seeing the place names. Is it on the Share Data tab on the right side for FamilySearch?  Did you check on the website that the place was actually listed?  If so and you don't see it inside RootsMagic then I need the FamilySearch ID of the person so I can test it. 

I guess you could be using WebSearch or WebHints with FamilySearch so I need more details.


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#6 Vyger

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 02:25 PM

  1. A standardized place name. RM puts this in for you, and I don't understand exactly when it is inserted or updated by RM (e.g., the standardized name would need to updated if the user changed the "main" place name). i do not believe that the standardized place name is supported in the Sentence Template Language

 

It is entered when RM automatically geocodes a place through "geocode all places" or when the user selects a match from the gazetteer.

 

I see it like a translation between the users preferred entry format and a more recognizable place name. Unfortunately whilst RM preserves webtags, media, notes, geocoding and the user entered place field on any geocoded place, Standardized and Abbreviated Place Names are not preserved in the gedcom output.

 

I'm not sure if this was an oversight or deliberate, maybe the Rootsmagician could enlarge.


Overcome the negatives, then only positives and praise remains.....

 

 

Current user of Rootsmagic version 7.5.7.0, Family Tree Maker 2014 and Legacy 7.5 on Win 10

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

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#7 DerickH

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 03:50 PM

I suppose I need to clarify this. When I seek additional information from FamilySearch (FS), I click on WebSearch. This brings up the FS screen. It copies the birth date but the "Any Place" option is blank. In other words, it does not copy over the birth place that I have entered in RM7. Usually the first listing I get on the FS screen is the same name in a geographical area which is not what I am looking for. If I enter the birth place I have entered in RM, I often get a listing of the name I am looking for. My initial question was: Why doesn't the RM birth place carry over to FS? Is it RM's fault or is it FS's fault?

#8 Renee Zamora

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 11:39 AM

RootsMagic is trying to make the broadest search possible when sending information to a search engine. That is why you are getting just the name and dates being sent. From there the users can narrow the search criteria. It's always best to search broad and then narrow as needed. If we sent to much there are many new genealogists that wouldn't realize they needed to broaden their search criteria to possible find what they are looking for.


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#9 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 12:56 PM

It's always best to search broad and then narrow as needed.

 

Interesting. I always search narrow and broaden as needed. For that and a variety of other reasons, RM's WebSearch view is the only RM view that I never use. I would much rather set the searches up myself. In other words, I would rather get 0 matches than 1,000,000 matches. I think that 0 matches is a much more useful result than 1,000,000 matches. I would rather broaden from 0 than narrow from 1,000,000.

 

The question earlier in this thread had to do with searching and FamilySearch, but most discussion about searching is applicable to most genealogy Web sites that you can search. I sort of cut my teeth with ancestry.com with respect to searching and genealogy. If you take all the ancestry.com defaults, their philosophy is why should they give you 1,000,000 matches if they can give you 1,000,001 instead? FamilySearch seems to operate pretty much the same way, except maybe they are not quite so extreme about it. And RM's WebSearch view has very much the same philosophy. The concern is to avoid discouraging new users by giving them 0 matches if you can give them a lot of matches instead, even if most of the matches are worthless, and even if the many worthless matches might obfuscate the few good matches.

 

So I use and teach a very different approach. First of all, always use exact searches when they are available, not the fuzzy sort of matches that are then ranked according to how good the matches are. And by the way, I'm not using the term "fuzzy" in any sort of derogatory manner. Fuzzy math and fuzzy logic are very sophisticated modern math tools to deal with uncertainty and approximation.

 

So we start with exact searches and give as little information as possible - sometimes just a name and sometimes just a name and a birth date. For example, if you give a death date with exact searches you will never get a match in census population schedules because the census population schedules do not contain death dates. But we do use date ranges such as "born in 1902 plus or minus 2 years". This is still an exact search because there is no fuzziness and there is no ranking. And we do sometimes use wildcards and sound-alikes for names - sm?th to get Smith and Smyth, for example. But again, this is still an exact search because there is no ranking. By no fuzziness, I mean there is no approximation - the individual matches the search or they do not. There are no 23% matches or 78% matches or 2 star matches or 3 star matches or anything like that. I have tremendous success with this approach, with few false positives and few false negatives. I do sometimes have to search two or three times. For example, I will usually search for Slaton as sl*t*n because it gets spelled in such ways as Slayton and Slaten. But I usually have to make a second search for sl*d*n because there is usually not a way to search for "d or t".

 

I would also point out that the Soundex system is the worst sound-alike system that has ever been invented. When Soundex is enabled, Bryan will match Brown but it will not match Bryant. There are about as many Browns as there are Smiths, and Brown is almost never a misspelling of Bryan. On the other hand, Bryant is frequently a misspelling of Bryan. So Soundex fails in both directions in this case, too many false positives and too many false negatives. And I will leave you with the thought that the name Sandy and the name Smith have the same Soundex code, so just imagine if your surname were Sandy and if you were doing Soundex searches. Fortunately, ancestry.com and probably other sites do support other sound-alike systems than Soundex. But  wildcards are usually the best approach when they are available rather than any formal sound-alike system.

 

The other reason I don't use RM's WebSearch is that it locks me into a modal window inside of RM using a substandard and obsolete Web browser. I would rather have a separate, non-modal window with a top of the line Web browser. I realize that part of the reason for the WebSearch view is that it can capture data for you from the Web site, but I would rather capture the data myself, especially since I'm normally going to capture an image of the Web site to attach to a source.

 

Jerry



#10 Laura

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 03:29 PM

In WebSearch, you have a choice to mark Use external browser.

When I search from WebSearch with that choice marked, it opens Firefox (my default browser) full screen to the search results screen.

So, I am not limited to Internet Explorer and the WebSearch results just showing within Websearch in the RM program.

#11 Renee Zamora

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 03:41 PM

 

It is entered when RM automatically geocodes a place through "geocode all places" or when the user selects a match from the gazetteer.

 

I see it like a translation between the users preferred entry format and a more recognizable place name. Unfortunately whilst RM preserves webtags, media, notes, geocoding and the user entered place field on any geocoded place, Standardized and Abbreviated Place Names are not preserved in the gedcom output.

 

I'm not sure if this was an oversight or deliberate, maybe the Rootsmagician could enlarge.

 

I asked the RootsMagician if this was even support in GEDCOM and he said it wasn't. He did say it is something we could look at adding. It might be a little tricky if RM tries to import a place with that info into a database that already has that place with a different standardized or short place.

 

I am confirming enhancement request is in our tracking system.


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#12 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 10:18 AM

In WebSearch, you have a choice to mark Use external browser.

 

I need to stand corrected on this point. The ability to use an external browser for WebSearch was added in RM7.

 

I suspect that my other reasons for launching a browser on my own rather than using the WebSearch view remain valid (i.e., setting up the search the way I want it set up), but I do think the external browser feature deserves a little further investigation on my part. And certainly, if you are satisfied with the searches you get from WebSearch, then it's a very nice feature.

 

Jerry



#13 Vyger

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 10:23 AM

 

I asked the RootsMagician if this was even support in GEDCOM and he said it wasn't. He did say it is something we could look at adding. It might be a little tricky if RM tries to import a place with that info into a database that already has that place with a different standardized or short place.

 

I am no expert on the GEDCOM standard but I did believe the "_PLAC" tag and some other information were the creation of the Rootsmagician specifically for use within Rootsmagic 4 onwards, this information is not output when RM Specifics is unchecked. If that is so then adding to the format to support maintaining the users Standardized and Abbreviated Place name preferences is a simple matter, all other Place components are supported within RM, I just could not understand why these were not.

 

Personally if "RM tries to import a place with that info into a database that already has that place with a different standardized or short place" I would suggest similar functionality to windows file copy but with Import, Don't Import & Import but keep both versions.

 

In search of reference to the "_PLAC" tag I found the following which was a bit of a read:

 

http://wiki-en.genea...GEDCOM/PLAC-Tag


Overcome the negatives, then only positives and praise remains.....

 

 

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Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

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#14 TomH

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 01:13 PM

PLAC is not a RootsMagic custom GEDCOM tag. It is a standard tag as per the reference you cited and per the 5.5.1 draft standard supported by RootsMagic:

PLAC {PLACE}:=
A jurisdictional name to identify the place or location of an event.

 

Edit:

 

_PLAC is a custom tag and exists only if the place is geo-coded, or has a note, or has media tagged.

 

Vyger, I think the point you are making is that the Standardized Place Name does not get exported to GEDCOM. 


Edited by TomH, 04 December 2015 - 02:30 PM.

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#15 Vyger

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 03:48 PM

Edit:

 

_PLAC is a custom tag and exists only if the place is geo-coded, or has a note, or has media tagged.

 

Vyger, I think the point you are making is that the Standardized Place Name does not get exported to GEDCOM. 

 

You got me before I got you :)

 

My point is that _PLAC exports if the Place is geocoded and, as far as I can see, preserves everything except Standardized and Abbreviated Place names. Being what I assume to be a custom RM tag I cannot see why those aspects were excluded when even the webtags are included.


Overcome the negatives, then only positives and praise remains.....

 

 

Current user of Rootsmagic version 7.5.7.0, Family Tree Maker 2014 and Legacy 7.5 on Win 10

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

Root


#16 Laura

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 07:47 AM

 

I need to stand corrected on this point. The ability to use an external browser for WebSearch was added in RM7.

 

I suspect that my other reasons for launching a browser on my own rather than using the WebSearch view remain valid (i.e., setting up the search the way I want it set up), but I do think the external browser feature deserves a little further investigation on my part. And certainly, if you are satisfied with the searches you get from WebSearch, then it's a very nice feature.

 

Jerry

Use external browser was added in RM 6.

 

I have been searching Find A Grave through WebSearch with Use external browser checked.

 

Often the search takes me directly to the link to open the Find A Grave record for the person I am looking for or a list of people which might be that person.

 

It all depends on how close the name in my database is to the name on Find A Grave whether I will need to refine the search.  On Ancestry and FamilySearch, I usually need to refine the search.

 

At the very least, it saves me time opening the browser and navigating to the site I want to search and the name is already entered for the person for any Search Provider I have in WebSearch.  If I don't need to refine the search, that is a plus.