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#1 fitz

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 08:52 AM

When I have only a baptism date and not a birth date the person list is showing a blank for date.  Since I have 79 John Parkers and several with only baptisms it takes checking each one out.  Thanks.



#2 RWells1938

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 09:18 AM

If you are talking about the People View there is a way to customize what shows on the screen.

 

Click Customize this view and then select the Baptism Date.

 

Hope this helps

 

Roger



#3 fitz

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 10:30 AM

It worked great.  Thank you.



#4 Renee Zamora

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 10:40 AM

If you are using the baptism fact it will not replace the birth fact when it is missing. You will want to use the Christen fact since it is the only one designed to work that way. Change the Christen fact sentence template to say baptism if you want to refer to it that way. 


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#5 fitz

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 01:34 PM

Is there a way to replace baptism facts with cristen facts?  It would not be feasible to replace individually all the baptisms that I already have listed.



#6 TomH

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 01:55 PM

Not from within RootsMagic. You could export a GEDCOM and use a text editor to do a global replacement of the BAPM tag with the CHR tag and then import the modified file to a new database. There is some attendant risk of loss in that process. Or you could operate directly on the database with SQLite, see Facts - Change Fact Type.


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#7 fitz

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 02:22 PM

Thank you but that is way beyond my capabilities.  It will have to stay baptisms.



#8 fitz

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 05:40 AM

Renee you said

If you are using the baptism fact it will not replace the birth fact when it is missing. You will want to use the Christen fact since it is the only one designed to work that way. Change the Christen fact sentence template to say baptism if you want to refer to it that way. 

 
 
Where are you referring to that it will not replace birth, in reports or some lists?  Thanks


#9 kbens0n

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 06:05 AM

In the absence of a Birth fact, a Christen fact will be used as the calculation starting point for <age at XXX> in the program's user interface and reports and such.
A Baptism fact does not offer this capability (as Baptisms can/do occur early and later in life).

Renee was saying that if you have a strong desire to have the fact appear as if it was a Baptism (instead of a Christening), use the Christen fact but edit the Fact Type List entry for Christen (Sentence Template) to remove the word christened and substitute the word baptized.

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#10 fitz

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 03:59 AM

But a baptism can tell you if you are in the 1500's, 1600's, 1700's, etc. and put the person at least in some sort of time frame in the list.



#11 RonB

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 05:16 AM

I would be interested in knowing what RootsMagic's rationale is for programming the Christen fact to override a missing birth date, but not programming for the Baptism fact to do the same. Baptism and Christening are two entirely separate and distinc facts. I could be wrong, but I have never heard of an adult being Christened, but it is very common for an adult to be baptized. It is a poor decision in my opinion to tell a user to use the christen fact and just change the wording to say baptism (but, the fact itself will still be labeled christen).

#12 fitz

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 05:46 AM

I have so many blank spaces in index for date.  I look at index and what I see are blank spaces and I have baptisms dates for them and even if you add baptism to people view it doesn't sort them using baptism date it still sorts as blank space.  I have too many names to change from baptism and the document says baptized.  Doing work in 1600's I frequently have baptisms and not births.



#13 TomH

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 05:53 AM

There are two distinct issues that are mixed up in this discussion. They must be separated.

1. Which fact to use to approximate the birth date when there is no birth event so that age calculations may be made reasonably? RootsMagic (and most other programs) substitute the Christen date. The reason is that infants are christened, adults never or rarely, while baptism can occur at any age.

2. Having the baptism event appear in places that it currently does not.

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#14 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 06:39 AM

This same issue comes up over and over again. In certain cultural and religious traditions, a baptism is equivalent to a christening in that a baptism is for an infant and it really is called a baptism rather than being called a christening. I think that's a point that's really being ignored by the current RM design.

 

Obviously, not everybody in your database will necessarily be from the same cultural and/or religious tradition. So if you enter everybody into your database "correctly", you will have two kinds of events in your database called baptism - the infant kind that can be used somewhat as a surrogate for a birth date when an exact birth date is not known and the adult kind that probably shouldn't be used as a surrogate for a birth date when an exact birth date is not known (about which more later). The RM designers are obviously not comfortable having two such very different kinds of events being entered as one kind of event and being treated in the exact same way by the software.  As a software person myself, I get it. But at the same time, I honestly don't think that the current design is very sensitive to the cultural and religious tradition of infant baptism.

 

I don't think the suggestion to solve the problem by entering infant baptisms with the christening fact type and changing the sentence template to print them out as baptisms is very wise. For one thing, if you personally are from the tradition of infant baptisms, it is going to feel very wrong to do so. Again, I think there has to be a sensitivity to cultural and religious traditions in the design the software. But putting feelings aside, if you enter infant baptisms as christenings, any export of the data or any other use of the data by third party software is going to treat the events as christenings rather than as infant baptisms. That's just wrong.

 

So, I think the best possible approach would be for there to be an option which should not be enabled by default to treat baptism events as a surrogate for a birth date when there is not a birth event or a christening event for a person. And said birth date would appear only in indexes and things like that in which birth dates appear - not as an actual birth fact in reports (just like the christening event). This would do no harm to any user who didn't want to use the option and they wouldn't even have to bother to turn it off if they didn't want to use it.

 

But let's suppose that such an option existed and were enabled. I still would recommend strongly that all users should put in a birth fact for all individuals in their database, even if it's an estimate. That would be especially important for individuals in their database whose only date was an adult baptism. Among many other advantages of such a procedure, it would prevent adult baptisms from appearing on your screens as birth dates.

 

Jerry



#15 zhangrau

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:59 AM

....

 

I still would recommend strongly that all users should put in a birth fact for all individuals in their database, even if it's an estimate. That would be especially important for individuals in their database whose only date was an adult baptism. Among many other advantages of such a procedure, it would prevent adult baptisms from appearing on your screens as birth dates.

 

Jerry

 

I really agree with this recommendation. I almost always include a birth date - whether known or estimated. Since RM allows a variety of prefixes (abt, circa, est, maybe, and so forth...) there are plenty of ways to make it clear that the date is estimated rather than known. This makes the sidebar index and the printed index both more user-friendly.



#16 fitz

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 12:16 PM

Since my old program used baptism date in list of names when there was no birth date but showed it in reports and on screen as baptism, I was always aware it was a baptism and date could be off.  If I felt the date was off I would put in estimated birth date and everything worked out just fine.  Also I have turned off the age in facts sentences as when I show an age in reports it tells me I have documentation for that particular fact listing an age and it is not calculation by RM.



#17 Lethdun

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 04:37 PM

I do believe that Jerry has hit the nail squarely on the head. He very nicely covered not just the advantages of having baptism options, but the disadvantages too. I do know that when I grew up (pre-Noah's Ark) many Baptist children were baptized between the ages of 8 and 12 -- not all, but many. That, in some instances, gives me a starting point for when a person might have been born. On the other hand, if you had said that child was christened, his or her parents would have invited me to a nice family gathering picnic and poked my eyes out with a stick.  :rolleyes: Just saying... they were very nice people. :wacko:

 

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#18 Nettie

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 12:30 PM

If  I mean IF  I had a baptism date or another record that gives me an estimate for a birth day, I do put the estimate date [ca/abt 1850] in as a birth date.  It helps to keep information in portion/line to the rest of the children, if there are any, and family dates.  So easy to change when you finally find a valid birth date. I use Baptism if found or Cradle Roll [Methodist Church certificate from the 1900's to ....]. I use the Baptism sentence for both and change the sentence template to match.


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#19 Vyger

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 05:55 PM

This old discussion rises time and time again, for the record I always enter an approximated birth date which in the case of recording a Baptism/Christening is usually BEF Baptism Date. To add to the confusion I spend a lot of time browsing Baptismal registers where essentially Christenings are recorded. The Christening event usually takes place within 6 months, very close to birth where infant health is an issue but generally no further than 6 months from birth so this is a good estimation.

 

I say again that I always estimate a birth date as best I can on entering an individual, this can be refined as new information, excepting birth proof, becomes available. I know many users on these forums will disagree with that approach but it serves me well, I know a birth took place :)  and when entering a person that is probably the best time to estimate when it took place.

 

It always interested me that RM has a Baptism, Christen and Christen (adult) events but no Baptism (adult) event which I find a more common occurrence in certain faiths.


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#20 TomH

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 07:09 PM

The reason there is a Christen (adult) fact type is because the Christen date is the substitute for Birth date. Christen (adult) is needed for those exceptional situations where there is no Birth fact and the Christen date should not be a substitute. Of course, a Birth fact with an estimated date obviates the need for an (adult) variant of either Christen or Baptism.


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