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If I create custom roles, do I have to use the 'shared fact' feature to make use of them?

role fact shared

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#1 moresawdust

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 10:17 PM

Former TMG person here...

 

Let's kick the "shared fact/GEDCOM" horse around some more, shall we?  I want to be sure I understand how RM7 uses roles.

 

I went to the trouble of adding a number of custom roles to the Census fact.  It seems like the ONLY way to make use of the custom roles is to share the Census fact with other people, with...

  (1)  the Principal role being the ONLY role available to the person that has the Census tag... and

  (2)  ALL roles being available to persons with whom the Census fact has been shared.

 

Is that correct?

 

If so...

 

I get that to make best use of GEDCOM, I should probably assign a Census fact to every individual, and customize every sentence locally.  But I dun wanna do dat.  Is there a way to add a Census fact to an individual, then assign a non-Principal role to that Census fact so that the custom sentence is (re-)used?

 

Thanks!

 

-Jim



#2 TomH

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 10:35 PM

You have understood perfectly. And, no, you cannot have a custom sentence other than the default for the Principal except local to the person-event. I guess you could create additional custom Census fact types and select the one with the appropriate sentence.

 

If your concern is that you want vanilla GEDCOM, here is a possible workaround for you until (if ever) RootsMagic incorporates a similar feature. Use shared events and roles in your master RootsMagic database. When you export to GEDCOM, make a copy of your database and convert the shared events to individual ones using this SQLite utility: Facts - Split Shared to Individual. The scripts are also incorporated in my RMtrix utility, linked below.


Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#3 Don Newcomb

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 04:40 PM

I'm a bit perplexed. How would you use different roles for the principal on a fact? 



#4 CherylCh

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 09:06 AM

Well, in RootsMagic you can't.  I'm also a former TMG user and, in TMG, I had separate roles for the principal in the 1850, 1860, and 1870 censuses (I have a separate fact type for each census) depending upon the property ownership reported by the head of household.  Depending upon the role selected for the principal (and translated into RootsMagic terminology) you could select which of the following sentences you wanted to appear in narrative reports by selecting a specific role for the principal.

 

[Person] was listed as the head of a household in the 1850 Census of [Place:Plain]. [Person] reported owning real estate worth [Desc].

 

[Person] was listed as the head of a household in the 1850 Census of [Place:Plain]. [Person] reported owning no real estate.

 

The workaround in RM could be two fact types for the 1850 Census, one for heads of household who are landowners, and one for those who aren't.

 

Cheryl



#5 TomH

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 12:33 PM

Some would argue that owner/tenant is data and should not be relegated to the position of a mere word in a sentence template. Better that it be a value in the Description field or in the Note for the event as those can be searched/filtered and can be outputted in more reports than just the narrative-types.

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#6 Laura

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 12:34 PM

There is no need for two facts as a workaround.

Use a value switch in the sentence.

Two sentences:

[person:first] is listed as the head of [Person::HisHer] household< in the [Date:Year] Census>< of [Place:Plain].><?[Desc]|  [Person:Caps] reported owning real estate worth [Desc].|  [Person:Caps] reported owning no real estate.>

One sentence:

[person:first:caps] is listed as the head of [Person::HisHer] household<?[Desc]| with real estate worth [Desc]| with no real estate>< in the [Date:Year] Census>< of [Place:Plain].>

Check out Help, Sentence template language.
 



#7 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 01:55 PM

And even with Laura's improvement from two sentences to one sentence, I'm personally still very uncomfortable putting things like property ownership into templated sentences as what I tend to think of as metadata instead of putting the data somewhere else (such as the census Note field) where it seems like it is more like real data. That is, I think of the sentence template as including information about how to format the data instead of actually being the data.

 

Here's another comment about Laura's improvement to get from two sentences down to one. In my opinion, one of the many problems with the source templates is that there are way too many of them and many of them are very nearly identical to each other. This thread is more about templates for fact/event sentences than about templates for sources. But I think Laura's idea of using value switches could be used to reduce considerably the number of source templates and also make it easier to use them because with fewer of them it would be much easier to choose which one to use. As a simple example, some of source templates for books differ only by whether the surname of the author is reversed with the forename or not in the bibliography - it's reversed for authors who are individual people but not for authors who are groups of people or organizations such as historical societies. This could be handled easily by a value switch instead of having to have multiple source templates.

 

Jerry

 



#8 CherylCh

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:43 PM

Would the Laura's suggestion be possible if there were more than two choices (owns/doesn't own real estate)?  I'm thinking of the 1860 and 1870 Censuses, where amount of personal property owned is reported along with the amount of real estate.  So a head of household could own no property, own real estate but not personal property, own personal property but not real estate, or own both.  

 

In any case, I decided after I switched to RM to put almost all of the information for the 1850, 1860, and 1870 censuses into the Note.  I did this primarily to record information about names and ages as reported in the census but it works well for reported property ownership as well, especially in those cases where someone other than the head of household reports owning property.  I suppose I'll do something similar with 1880 - 1940, but that will be a lot more work.  And I keep dithering about whether or not to use shared events.

 

Cheryl



#9 Laura

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 04:16 PM

If you also want all that in the sentence, put jt all the description, Real estate 240 and Private property 300. Adjust the sentence(s) accordingly. Don't go over 100 characters in the description so it doesn't get cut off short in a gedcom or Drag and drop.

If I was using another program and you sent me a gedcom with, say 240, in the description box, I would not have any idea what you meant. RM sentences are not transfered to other programs.

And, I am assuming that the other program allows for choosing to add descriptions to facts when the program defined fact does not have it to start with.

Any thing that is important data other than the date and place should be put in the fact note or at least in the Research note for Source details.

We can put anything in the description field we want, but I don't make that the only place important data is recorded.

I enter the name of the head of household in the Census fact description field for those in the household. The head of the household has nothing in the description field. I enter a transcription for that family's census record in the note. I also copy and paste it into the Source detail, Research note so it will be in the Research note report.

I don't Share facts and I don't use Place details.

In other programs, only the fact for the Principal will probably transfer. The fact for the Sharees will be lost.

Place details are saved in a gedcom with an Address tag. I have no idea where or if another program might import that data.

#10 rossko57

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 05:20 PM

Another ex-TMG user, recently converted to RM7 (much less traumatic than expected, thumbs-up for the creators/maintainers in catering for us !!).

 

The model of creating a "Census Fact" on an individual, the head of house, and sharing that with wife, sons, grandma, is familiar to me.

But to add my pennyworth, the role for the primary person getting a Census fact attached is not necessarily "Head of household".  Maybe our UK census are structured differently, but we also see records for ships, businesses, institutions, garrisons, etc.

 

The person I am interested in (i.e. have in my database) may be a servant in a household, a soldier, prisoner, boarder, or simply visiting etc.  I've got 'em all!    My person is certainly not the "principle" in the context of that record, though of course they are from the viewpoint of how-do-I-attach-that-record-to-my-dataset.

I'm not going to launch into how wonderful TMG was, just point out that it did not make a presumption that a Census fact recipient was "Head".   Of course the Fact could/should have all the required detail and/or an image of the form embedded in it, but there seems no simple way to give the RM7 principle person a visible 'role' in a similar way to 'sharing' persons?

 

No idea how it all squares with GEDCOM

I will say that duplicating info across individuals is a horror that databases were invented to avoid  :o  But does RM's GEDCOM export not automatically repeat shared Facts for each individual ? (to suit the limitations of the format)  

 

I doubt there are easy answers!

 

Ross K.



#11 TomH

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 06:18 PM

You can customise the default sentence for Census to read something other than "head of household". The default sentence may be replaced at any instance of the fact for the Principal with a custom sentence for that person. So you could leave the default to suit the majority of your cases and replace it with custom sentences for those persons who are exceptional. However, I appreciate that that is not as convenient as being able to have several roles for Principals, each with its own default sentence.

The Principal can share a fact with himself using one of the witness roles but then you will get two instances of the fact in reports, albeit with different sentences in narratives.

RootsMagic does not convert shared facts to individual facts on export. It is possible using an outboard utility - see http://sqlitetoolsfo...d to Individual

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#12 Laura

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 07:09 PM

RootsMagic does not presume that the Principle for a Census fact is the head of household either.

The default Principle sentence for the Census fact is:  [person] appeared in the census< [Date]>< [PlaceDetails]>< [Place]>.

Any changes to that sentence are made by the user.

Principle is the role which RM automatic assigns to the person the fact is linked to.  The fact can then be shared with others with user defined roles or not shared as the user wishes.

It has nothing to do with who is the head of household in a census record.