Jump to content


Photo

Source Templates To Be Fixed


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#1 Renee Zamora

Renee Zamora

    Advanced Member

  • Support
  • PipPipPip
  • 7851 posts

Posted 20 September 2013 - 06:33 PM

In a future update the RootsMagician plans on fixing any issues in the source templates. We would like to cover all issues at the same time, because it isn't as simple as just changing the template file. (RootsMagic has to update the templates in existing databases as well.) We would like your assistance to make sure we cover everything needing to be fixed. Could you please list any known issues you have with any of the source templates. We are not looking to create new templates at this time. Just known issues with the ones currently in RootsMagic.

We appreciate your assistance.

Renee
RootsMagic

#2 TomH

TomH

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5823 posts

Posted 21 September 2013 - 09:55 AM

What is the focus, Renee? Solely the sentence templates for the Footnote, Short Footnote and Bibliography? Not, as I have suggested, also new sentence templates for GEDCOM export?

A general problem with the existing three sentence templates is the outputting of extraneous punctuation and words when one or more fields is left empty, as is often the case when one uses a Source Template that is an imperfect fit for a particular type of source. A general solution that would allow any field(s) to be left empty would require revision of almost all source templates with the addition of many switches, some nested. While that may seem to be overkill and would grossly complicate the sentence templates, there seems to be an inherent assumption in the current templates that some fields are mandatory, yet no such input control is provided.

For example, the Ancestral File template:

Footnote:
<[Compiler], compiler, >"[FamilyGroup],"< ([Type]),> [AFNumbers], <i>Ancestral File</i><?[AFVersion]|, <version [AFVersion]>< ([Year])>>, Family History Library, Salt Lake City, Utah.
might become:
<[Compiler], compiler, ><"[FamilyGroup],">< ([Type]),>< [AFNumbers],> <i>Ancestral File</i><?[AFVersion]|<, version [AFVersion]>< ([Year])>>, Family History Library, Salt Lake City, Utah.
in order to suppress the extraneous quotes and commas. In this case, the embedded text probably should remain.

Footnote: "," , Ancestral File, Family History Library, Salt Lake City, Utah.
becomes
Ancestral File, Family History Library, Salt Lake City, Utah.


This is probably one of the simpler examples. It would be a pretty big job to go through all 413 source templates to suppress the extraneous and testing them to make sure they have not been screwed up in some other way. Bill Bienia did a very good job getting them to the state they are.

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#3 RootsMagician

RootsMagician

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • PipPipPip
  • 826 posts

Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:36 PM

Tom,

Yes, on this first go round we are looking to handle the extraneous punctuation when fields are left empty. It is probably overkill to handle every single field as optional, so we are mainly looking for feedback on source types / fields that can be empty often enough to create this extraneous punctuation more than just rarely. Basically we are trying to tighten up the source templates that currently exist before we get into any new / modified functionality in this area.
RootsMagician

#4 TomH

TomH

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5823 posts

Posted 25 September 2013 - 08:12 AM

What other types of sentence template issues are you looking to fix in this round?

Another issue is that a field in a sentence template, for which the corresponding field does not exist (not just empty) in the SourceTable or CitationTable "Fields" field, has its name printed (in square brackets) in the generated sentence. This can arise after merging sources having different source templates and can only be fixed by editing the citation.

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#5 TomH

TomH

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5823 posts

Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:57 AM

on this first go round we are looking to handle the extraneous punctuation when fields are left empty. It is probably overkill to handle every single field as optional, so we are mainly looking for feedback on source types / fields that can be empty often enough to create this extraneous punctuation more than just rarely.

I wonder if a systematic, across-the-board approach would not be better for the long run. Unless RootsMagic is receiving lots of private messages on this topic, it would appear that this call for input is falling flat - perhaps because users here don't use source templates or only use editable copies.

I have been exploring the empty fields issue further on the page Source Templates - Revision Utilities. An example screenshot below shows one empty citation for each source created on and named from a copy of each built-in source template. The Citation Manager readily displays the extraneous punctuation and text for the three report sentences for the selected empty citation.

The systematic effort involved in editing each source template might prove to be no greater than that involved in trying to gather statistics on observed problems or the relative utilisation of each source template (the latter possibly derived from all the databases submitted to Tech Support).

There is the question, however, over whether or not the extraneous output when fields are empty is, in some cases, a good thing - indicating that the citation is in some way incomplete or inadequate. That introduces a degree of subjective judgement when editing the templates - far easier to assume any field may be left blank and solve accordingly.

Posted Image

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#6 Pheney

Pheney

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 31 posts

Posted 25 September 2013 - 04:11 PM

An issue I would like fixed is the incorrect output to a gedcom file of footnotes created from some source templates. I have had a particular issue with the Obituary source template. In this template, the details fields are not concatenated in the footnote – instead, “Item ID” is at the start of the footnote, and "Date", "Details" and "Annotation" are at the end: [ItemID], <i>[Newspaper]</i>< /[[TranslatedName]/]>, [PubPlace], [Date]<, [Details]><. [Annotation]>.

The same issue arises with another source template that splits the detail fields in the footnote, Basic Ancestry Images (which I don’t use) – it also parses the footnote incorrectly in a gedcom.

I have long used freeform to avoid this issue, but recently took the plunge and learned how to use Tom H's SQlite-based processes to split sources. I now use source templates and, to make a gedcom, first make a copy of my database (or part of it via drag and drop), then run the SQlite tools on the copy in order to to create split sources, and then finally create the gedcom.

My request is for Rootsmagic to output footnotes to gedcom without the need to use SQlite.

#7 TomH

TomH

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5823 posts

Posted 26 September 2013 - 10:08 PM

Another error common to many source templates is punctuation incorrectly placed between double quotes. For example "[Title]," instead of "[Title]",. I am sure that this is grammatically incorrect although I have not checked E! and EE to see if it is consistent with Mills' style (I hope not!).

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#8 Jerry Bryan

Jerry Bryan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3024 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 06:53 AM

Another error common to many source templates is punctuation incorrectly placed between double quotes. For example "[Title]," instead of "[Title]",. I am sure that this is grammatically incorrect although I have not checked E! and EE to see if it is consistent with Mills' style (I hope not!).


Tom, I agree with you 100% on this particular point of grammar. But my experience on this and similar issues suggests that you are likely to run into a maelstrom of disagreement. I realize that there are likely to be many English teachers, English professors, librarians, and folks like that reading this. Nevertheless, I am reminded of a famous quote by Georges Clemenceau that says "war is too important to be left to the generals". My equivalent version with respect to grammar and punctuation is that "grammar and punctuation are too important to be left to the English professors". We need to have the computer scientists and computer programmers of the world making these decisions. :D

Jerry

#9 TomH

TomH

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5823 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:02 AM

Tom, I agree with you 100% on this particular point of grammar. But my experience on this and similar issues suggests that you are likely to run into a maelstrom of disagreement...

Omigosh, you're not kidding, now that I have looked into it a bit. There are divergences in practice trans-Atlantic, north-south, between sectors, fiction and non-fiction et al according to Grammar-Monster.com. It characterises the innie-outie placement of periods and commas relative to the quotation as US vs UK practice, granting that that is just a convenient oversimplification. An article by Grammar Girl echoes that and cites references that indicate the "US" practice follows that of early typesetters and compositors using now-obsolete technology while the "UK" practice is "logical". Note that I placed the period ending the previous sentence outside the quotes; I cannot see any reason that it should be within.

I learned my grammar in the 50's and 60's in Canada which some have said is culturally mid-Atlantic, also an over-simplification, but, always trying to be logical, I evidently use "UK rules". Apparently, our practice has evolved: the government's own guide to "The Canadian Style" encourages placing period and comma within the quotes except "when a very high degree of accuracy is required" in which case "logical" placement is used. I would argue that Evidence style citations are supposed to be accurate and, therefore, ...

What ultimately this says is that we want RootsMagic to support our choice of the punctuation style around/within quotations. That covers personal preference, locale independence, target readership. What it delivers now is right for many, wrong for others.

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#10 Jerry Bryan

Jerry Bryan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3024 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:55 AM

Omigosh, you're not kidding, ....


Truly, I was not kidding (well, except for the bit about computer programmers and computer scientists taking over all the grammar and punctuation rules for the whole world, which I DID punctuate with a smiley). There is no way in their present incarnation that the sentence templates can satisfy all the existing grammar and punctuation authorities. Which just goes to show you, for every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert.

Jerry

#11 TomH

TomH

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5823 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:51 PM

Checked EE at the library and confirmed that its punctuation in the presence of quotation marks is clearly 'American'. RootsMagic source templates punctuate accordingly. I wonder if it is practical to have a choice of punctuation styles, i.e., US|UK or American|Logical, as one does for the spellcheck.

Maybe an outboard utility could modify the source templates but the built-in ones won't migrate via a transfer from a modified database to an unmodified one. Citations would revert to the programmed punctuation.

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#12 TomH

TomH

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5823 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 09:54 AM

Some punctuation inconsistencies in the built-in templates:

TemplateID Name Footnote
130 Military Records "[Title],'" [Details]<, [Government]><, [Location]><, [Repository]><, [RepositoryLoc]>.
-- rogue single quote
174 Local Records, Registers (named volumes) [Jurisdiction], "[Volume]",< [PageArrange],> [Page], [ItemID]<, [RecDate]>; [Repository], [RepositoryLoc].
-- comma outside quote inconsistent with most other sentence templates
427 Family Trees, Undocumented "[DatabaseTitle]", <[Format:lower]|database>,< [Creator],> <i><[WebsiteTitle]|Ancestry.com></i> ([URL] : <[AccessType]|accessed> [AccessDate])<, [ItemOfInterest]>; undocumented and unnamed family tree submitted< [SubmitDate]>< by [SubmittedBy]><!<, [EmailAddress]>><!<, [StreetAddress]>|, [<sc>contact information for private use</sc>]><, [CityAddress]><; [Annotation]>.
-- comma outside quote inconsistent with most other sentence templates
428 Family Trees, Documented "[DatabaseTitle]", <[Format:lower]|database>,< [Creator],> <[WebsiteTitle]|Ancestry.com> ([URL] : <[AccessType]|accessed> [AccessDate])<, "[TreeTitle]><," [ItemOfInterest]|">; submitted< [SubmitDate]>< by [SubmittedBy]>>|, [contact information for private use]><, [CityAddress]><; citing [FilmDetails]><; [Annotation]>.
-- comma outside quote inconsistent with most other sentence templates

TemplateID Name ShortFootnote
17 Book Chapter [ChapAuthor:Surname], "[ChapTitle]", [Page:abbrev].
-- comma outside quote inconsistent with most other sentence templates
179 Social Security Death Index (SSDI), online Social Security Administration, "U.S. Social Security Death Index", database, <i>[WebsiteTitle]</i>, [Name], [Number]<, [SSDate:Year]>.
-- comma outside quote inconsistent with most other sentence templates

TemplateID Name Bibliography
252 Papers, Distributed Individually [Author:Reverse]. "[Article]". <i>[PaperTitle]</i>. <[PaperID:Caps]. >[ConfName]. [PubLoc]: [Publisher:Abbrev], [PubDate].
-- period outside quote inconsistent with most other sentence templates

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#13 TomH

TomH

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5823 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 10:41 AM

TemplateID Name Footnote
23 Book, Translated Work (author known) [Author], <i>[Title]<: [Subtitle]></i><, volume [Volume]><, <i>[VolTitle]<: [VolSubtitle]></i>>>, [Translator], <[Role]|translator> (<[PubPlace]|n.p.>: <[Publisher]|n.p.>, <[PubDate]|n.d.>), [Page].
-- imbalanced switch brace
368 Civil Reg., Statutory Registers, Scotland (online images) [Jurisdiction], [Volume], [ItemOfInterest]; <[ItemType]|digital image>, <i>[WebsiteTitle]</i> ([URL]: <[AccessedType]|accessed> [AccessDate])<; [CreditLine]>.
-- incorrect fieldname

TemplateID Name ShortFootnote
390 Codes, State (online images) [Author:Surname], <i>[Title]</i> [<[PubDate:Year]>], [ItemOfInterest:Abbrev].
-- questionable shift to square brackets when regular parentheses used in footnote
-- likewise for Codes, State (printed)
249 Lecture (recorded, tape/CD/DVD) <[Author:Surname], ><i>[Title]:Abbrev]</i><, [Entry]>.
-- rogue field brace


TemplateID Name Bibliography
53 Census, U.S. Native American Tribal (Microfilm, NA) [Jurisdiction:Reverse]. [CensusID]. <[Agency]|Bureau of Indian Affairs>. <i>[PubTitle]</i>. <NARA microfilm publication [FilmID]>, [RollNo]>. <[PublishLoc]|Washington, D.C.>: <[Publisher]|National Archives and Records Services>, [PubDate:Year].
-- imbalanced switch brace
90 Genetic Test (DNA) CD [CorpAuthor]< ([CorpLoc])>. "[ReportTitle]<: [RptSubtitle]>." [ReportDate]<. <[Type]|CD-ROM.> Genetic test report held by [HeldBy], <![StreetAdrs][<sc>address for private use</sc>]><, [CityAdrs]><. [HeldDate:Year]>.
-- imbalanced switch brace
249 Lecture (recorded, tape/CD/DVD) <[Author:Reverse]. ><i>[Title]</i>. <<[LectureID:Caps]|Lecture>><?[Conference]|. [Sponsor], [Conference]: [ConfLoc], [Year]>>. <i>[RecordingTitle]</i>. [RecordingType:Caps]. [PubLoc]: [Publisher], [PubDate].
-- imbalanced switch brace

Pausing here

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#14 TomH

TomH

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5823 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 12:07 PM

TemplateID Name Footnote
315 Book, Audio [Presenter]<, [Role]>, <i>[Title]<: [Subtitle]></i><, [Series]>, [Format:Abbrev] (<[PubPlace]|N.p.>: <[Publisher]|n.p.>, <[PubDate:Year]|n.d.>)<, [SpecificLoc]>.
-- field undefined
-- likewise for Book, CD/DVD (Text)

TemplateID Name ShortFootnote
328 NA (U.S.) Database, Online "[DatabaseTitle]," <[ItemType:lower:Abbrev]|digital images>, <i>[WebsiteTitle]></i>, [ItemOfInterest:Abbrev].
-- imbalanced switch brace
156 Podcasts [Presenter:Surname], <?[SpecificContent]|"[Title]," [SpecificContent].|"[Title.">
-- missing closing field brace

TemplateID Name Bibliography
158 Manuscript, Preservation film (compiled series, FHL-GSU) [Compiler:Reverse]. "[ManSeriesTitle]."< [NoOfVols]|."> <[ItemType:Caps]>. [CreationDate]. [OwnerRepository], [OwnerLoc].< FHL microfilm [FilmID]><, [NoOfRolls]>. Family History Library, Salt Lake City, Utah.
-- extra period and quotation mark when [NoOfVols] is empty.
323 Maps, NA (U.S.) "[FileUnitName]." [PubDate:Caps]. [SeriesName]]. [RGTitle], [RGNo]. <[Repository]|National Archives>, <[RepositoryLoc]|College Park, Maryland>.
-- extra closing bracket
401 NA-LAC (Canada) LAC Microfilm <[Country]. >"[Volume]." [SeriesName]. [RGName], [RGNo]. [Collection]. LAC Microfilm [FilmID]. <[Repository]|Library and Archives Canada>, <[RepositoryLoc]|Ottawa>.
-- field not defined

This completes a visual inspection of the sentences generated in the Citation Manager from an empty citation of an empty source created from each built-in source template as described earlier on the page Source Templates - Revision Utilities.

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#15 mabeldin

mabeldin

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9 posts

Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:38 AM

Hi Renee,
Here are two things I would like to see fixed or created:

1) A source template for FamilySearch Family Tree

2) The ability to use foreign characters in the Master Source List titles (I was trying to add the name of an author to my Master list; I could not use an accented "e" at the end of his name. I tried alt + 0233, nothing. I then clicked ctrl + T for the character map. The character map pops up, I chose the letter I wanted, nothing pasted to the title. I was trying to add the author's name to a Book entry in the Master Source List - Gagné)

Thanks, Margie
Margie

#16 TomH

TomH

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5823 posts

Posted 30 September 2013 - 12:12 PM

2) The ability to use foreign characters in the Master Source List titles (I was trying to add the name of an author to my Master list; I could not use an accented "e" at the end of his name. I tried alt + 0233, nothing. I then clicked ctrl + T for the character map. The character map pops up, I chose the letter I wanted, nothing pasted to the title. I was trying to add the author's name to a Book entry in the Master Source List - Gagné)

Margie, I think you have uncovered a bug. Check your Source Comments - I'll bet you find your é there. I am finding that when the Character Map is called up from any field in the Edit Source screen > Citation Tab, its output character is being misplaced in Source Comments. However, alt+0233 worked just fine, not as you experienced.

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#17 MessengerFamilyGuy

MessengerFamilyGuy

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:37 PM

Wouldn't it be easier and more complete to provide a setting to choose to remove extemporaneous punctuation from all templates produced text, and then write one algorithm that strips it after the template is applied, instead of doing a partial fix on only some of the templates.

#18 TomH

TomH

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5823 posts

Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:49 PM

I don't know. Sounds like it might need some smarts. It's one thing to replace ", ," with ", ". It may be quite another when there are combinations of different punctuation marks to resolve. And which quotation mark of three should be deleted?

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#19 Renee Zamora

Renee Zamora

    Advanced Member

  • Support
  • PipPipPip
  • 7851 posts

Posted 21 October 2013 - 09:42 AM

Adding link to forum thread dealing with source templates exported in GEDCOM

http://forums.rootsm...erview-sources/
Renee
RootsMagic

#20 Cora

Cora

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:08 PM

I want to simplify my family research but accurate data iholds threshold importance to me. In several RM 6. default templates, "Military, Muster Rolls for example" - Footnote, Short Footnote and Bibliography all default to "National Archives, Washington, DC". There appears to be no way to remove that source information through editing the template because it simply doesn't seem to appear there. Any help in removing this default information will be very greatly appreciated. If it is, in fact, a programmed default then its presence frustrates the convenience of templates altogether, imo.