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all names that should come up don't come up when creating a list

creating lists

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#1 dalehein

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 07:55 PM

I followed the help instructions exactly and tried several times before I could make a list of people who lived in a certain area. After trying multiple place names -- Owen County, IN, Owen, IN, Owen, Indiana, Owen County, Indiana -- I finally got it to work when I put Owen County, Indiana, United States, which is weird because nowhere in my Roots Magic have I put United States after any place. But that's when it finally worked -- sort of. I went over the list and it left out at least three major people who clearly lived in Owen County, Indiana. And it can't be because of the town, because some from that town were listed. I have looked and looked at this list and compared it to my records and it makes no sense at all why certain names were left out. Why would this happen? Is it a problem that needs to be fixed?
Thank you. Dale

#2 Alfred

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 10:05 PM

I don't know what kind of a list you were trying to create.
You might have been able to create an individual list of selected people, mark people, select by data fields.
any fact place contains Owen
AND any fact place contains IN
OK
Then repeat the Mark people, select by data fields
any fact place contains Owen
AND any fact place contains Indiana
OK
OK
generate list

Did you look in the Place list to see how many different names you may have given the one place?

========= EDITED =========
I see what Tom mentioned.
If someone had one fact with Indiana in it's place and any other with Owen in it's place then the person would be selected.
Since there is no check for whole word, Owen would be found in Owens, Owendale, Owenmont, Owenoke, Owensboro, Owensville, Owenton, Owentown and progably a few others, so my idea could extend your list a bit.
Alfred

#3 TomH

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:11 PM

I don't think Alfred's suggestion will give only persons who had an event in Owen, Indiana. The "contains" comparator will return any person with any event having that string in its Place string. The AND does not restrict the results to be those true for the same event: one event could contain "Owen" while any event for the same person containing "in" (a very loose search term) satisfies the test.

I think it will b necessary to be more consistent with the Place name for the place search to work more effectively. Alternatively, geo-code all the places and run the report on a radius from a coordinate central to the area of interest.
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#4 Renee Zamora

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:54 AM

Have you tried to use the "Who Was There List" report?
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#5 dalehein

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:54 PM

Thank you for your responses. I'm going to try some of the suggestions right now, but in answer to Renee, that is the list I was trying to create -- "Who Was There List." I was trying to create a list of everyone who lived in Owen County Indiana between the years 1750 and 1920. And Alfred, marking the people wouldn't help, because if I wanted to go through all 3000 people I could make a list myself by hand of which ones lived in Owen County, Indiana. I thought the beauty of the create a list feature was that I can just tell the program to do it for me. Correct?

And to answer Tom, I did look through my pedigree chart after I was finally able to print a list to see if any were missing. I didn't go through all 3000 names, but I went through enough to find out some people who were there for two or major life events didn't get on the list, so that was enough to satisfy me it didn't do what I thought it was supposed to do.

Every name that did make it to the list was in Owen County Indiana, but the problem is it was an incomplete list.

I'm probably doing something wrong, so I'll go try again.

Thank you for your suggestions.

Dale

#6 TomH

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 08:19 PM

Give us the following:

- the place name you defined for the Who Was There report
- the place name(s) that you think should be included but were not

Exactly as they are in your database.
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#7 dalehein

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 08:34 PM

Ok. I tried it again. This is what I did. I went to Reports, clicked on Lists, then highlighted "Who Was There List", then checked Create Report. In the Create Report box I put "Owen Indiana" (without the quotation marks). I put 1750-1920 for during this time period. Life span, I put 100. Filters, I put Everyone. Minimum age, I put 0. Maximum age, I put 00. Then I clicked Generate Report. It brought up nothing -- zero names.

So then I did everything exactly the same, but I put "Owen, Indiana" (with a comma) and it listed 25 names. BUT not some who definitely should have been on there. Like a man direct descendant who was born there, married there, and had 3 children there. And I'm sure there were others, because I looked for some the other night that weren't on there.

So then I did it again, but this time I put "Owen, IN" for the place and I got 45 names! And that man was one of them. But for the place of his events it doesn't have Owen, IN. It has Franklin, Owen, IN. So go figure. On the first report using Owen, Indiana, the place for some of those 25 names in the list was Freedom, Owen, IN, so why wasn't someone with Franklin, Owen, IN on that report?

So then I tried three more place names -- Owen, Indiana, United States and Owen County, IN and Owen County, Indiana. With every one of those I got the same exact 25 name list that I got with Owen, Indiana. I think I figured out one thing -- always use a comma. :)

Maybe that 45 name list is complete, but how can I trust that it is without going through all 3000 names to compare and see if any were missed. In which case, the create a list feature isn't helpful at all. Maybe I'm missing something really obvious here, but I can't think of what it could be.

It's obvious that the place name doesn't have to be exactly what you put for it to pull in a name, because the place name is all different ways on every list it did make.

This could be a great list to be able to make when you find a website that has something like marriage records for Owen County, Indiana. It would be nice to not have to spend time scouring your pedigree chart trying to find all the people who lived there.

Dale

#8 dalehein

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 08:52 PM

Tom H, I just saw your request about sending the place names list. I can do that, but obviously you hadn't seen my last response yet. Is that enough information? Here are all of the place names on the 25 name list:
Owen County, IN
Defore Cemetery, Freedom, Owen, IN
Spencer, Owen, IN
Freedom, Owen, IN
Hicks Cemetery, Freedom, Owen, IN
Of Freedom, Owen, IN

And here are the places on the longer 45 name list:
Of Jefferson, Owen, IN
Of Franklin, Owen, IN
Franklin, Owen, IN
Freedom, Franklin Twp., Owen, IN

Ah-ha! So it seems pretty clear now that it's all the names that were in Franklin that would only come up if I put Owen, IN. So why would Freedom, Owen, IN come up when I put in all those other place name variations I told you about in the last message I sent, but Franklin, Owen, IN wouldn't? That makes no sense at all, right? I'm going to bed now. Thank you for helping me with this. I'll be anxious to see what you say about this.

Dale

#9 TomH

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:06 PM

Dale, I have to join you in puzzlement over how exactly the Who Was There report processes places against the target place. At one time I thought it was a simple string search but it is more sophisticated (or more complicated, at least) than that. For example, in my database, I have a number of persons with events in places in Ontario county, Ontario, Canada.

The following target places return exactly the same, small set of results:
  • "Ontario, Ontario"
  • "Ontario Co, Ontario"
  • "Ontario County, Ontario"
The 14 results include 5 different places following two of the target strings:
"Brock Township, Ontario, Ontario, Canada" (1)
"Scugog Island, Ontario, Ontario, Canada" (1)
"Reach Twp, Ontario Co, Ontario" (2)
"Mara Township., Ontario Co., Ontario, Canada" (similar to 2 but not exactly the same because of the period)
Not one result matched target #3 but the same results were returned so it is evident that RM is doing something other than string matching with the word "County".

Now if I change the target to:
4. "Ontario Co., Ontario" (note the period)
I get way more results, 4 pages worth, most of which are string matches but also including ones with "Ontario, Ontario" and "Ontario Co, Ontario" (w/o the period).

If I try wild cards, e.g. "Ontario *, Ontario" or "Ontario %, Ontario", I get the same 14 results as targets 1-3. It's as though "Co" and "County" are ignored in the same way as "*" and "%" but does not explain why ""Mara Township., Ontario Co., Ontario, Canada" is the only one of the "Ontario Co., Ontario, Canada" places to be returned; that period after "Township" might have something to do with it.

So instead of answering your question, I have amplified the mystery around the Who Was There report. But you might try "Owen Co., IN" as your target and see if that gives you better results!
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#10 Laura

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:50 PM

Check Franklin, Owen, IN and make sure you have a comma after Owen and not a period.
Laura

The following was overheard at a recent high society party...
"My ancestry goes all the way back to Alexander the Great," said one lady. She then turned to a second woman and asked, "How far does your family go back?"
"I don't know," was the reply. "All of our records were lost in the flood."
-on various web sites-

#11 dalehein

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:12 AM

Tom, It's always gratifying to find out it isn't me. So shouldn't this be reported to the tech people for RM? Because I would think it shouldn't be like that. It should pull up any person for that time period who has any part of Owen, Indiana of Owen, IN regardless of any other information in the place name, or it's useless. But I'm not calling tech support, because I only did that once (about a year ago) and the woman acted like I was stupid so I finally said thanks anyway and ended the call. Turned out I wasn't stupid. I figured it out myself and it was such a simple solution I couldn't believe she didn't get it. Worst customer support I have ever dealt with in my life -- ever.

What is the geocoding feature? Is it something that will take all my place names and standardize them? That would be nice.

Dale

#12 Renee Zamora

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:21 AM

It helps if you geocode your places, otherwise RM can only use text comparison.

You could open up a support ticket and include a backup (.rmgb) of your database. Tell us the settings you used, so we can duplicate testing.

FYI, the RootsMagic group is going to RootsTech for the rest of this week. We will be back Monday, March 25, 2013. Support will be very limited during this time frame. The ticket system might become buried so be patient with us.

http://support.roots...us_requests/new
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#13 TomH

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:49 AM

What is the geocoding feature? Is it something that will take all my place names and standardize them? That would be nice.

Yes, see RootsMagic Help and search on the term "geocoding" and open "GeoCoding Places". The GeoCode is the latitude and longitude of the place. With places geocoded, the Place List report option "Print events near a place" is at its most effective because RootsMagic can calculate the distance between each pair of geographical coordinates.
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#14 TomH

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:53 AM

It helps if you geocode your places, otherwise RM can only use text comparison.


Does "Who Was There" use geographical coordinates? I rather doubt it. I think it is purely a text string comparison, albeit not a simple one. The geographical coordinates helps the Place List "Print events near a place" and mapping.
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#15 Renee Zamora

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 11:00 AM

The RootsMagician is the one that told me: "It helps if you geocode your places, otherwise RM can only use text comparison." So it designed to be taking them into consideration.
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#16 TomH

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:09 PM

The RootsMagician is the one that told me: "It helps if you geocode your places, otherwise RM can only use text comparison." So it designed to be taking them into consideration.

i'll bet he has confused "Who was there" with "Print events near a place". WWT has no means for entering a coordinate nor defining a radius or boundary. For it to include geographical coordinates in its calculations, it would need to get a coordinate and radius or a set of coordinates defining the boundary of the WWT place. So where is the data that define the borders of Tennessee so that a WWT for that state excludes places from the seven states adjoining? Or for the current city of Toronto which includes several former municipalities whose historical names I have used along with their specific geo-coordinates?

I think it would be a good enhancement for these geographical reports to support geo-spatial definitions more complex than a circle or a square.
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#17 dalehein

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:38 PM

I geocoded my whole RM over the weekend. I just tried doing the report again using Owen County, Indiana and all the other same perimeters. That was one that only brought up 25 names last week, as opposed to Owen, IN which brought up 45. So this time I got 50! But before we celebrate, that same man I have on there who had several life events in Franklin, Owen, IN isn't one of them! But 13 that I have "Of Franklin, Owen, IN" are! And one of them is his sister! Sorry, folks. I think the feature is broke.

#18 Alfred

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:53 PM

Why don't you merge those places so that there is only one of each place?
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#19 c24m48

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 08:12 PM

So where is the data that define the borders of Tennessee so that a WWT for that state excludes places from the seven states adjoining?


Eight.

Jerry

#20 TomH

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:59 AM

The RootsMagician is the one that told me: "It helps if you geocode your places, otherwise RM can only use text comparison." So it designed to be taking them into consideration.

The RootsMagic geo-coding function may help, not because of geographical coordinates, but because the Standardized name for the place is also part of the text search. I created a place "Erstwhile, Opeongo, Berzerkistan" and entered into the Standardized name "Franklin, Owen, Indiana, United States". When I set Who Was There report to any of "Franklin", "Owen", "Indiana" or "United States", my event in Erstwhile is returned. Lat and Long were empty.

If I assign the coordinates of Franklin to Erstwhile and change Erstwhile's Standardized name to something other than "Franklin, Indiana, Unites States", then WWT does not return Erstwhile when target place is set to "Franklin, Indiana, Unites States" or any subset thereof. Therefore, geographical coordinates are not used by WWT.

Dale, another wrinkle is that the person must be alive in the time range for the WWT report. For it to know that, there must be a dated Birth | Christen or Death | Burial event for it to apply the average life span filter if there is not a pair of those events that define the actual life span. So have a look at the persons you have found to be missing and see if they have at least one of those events. If not, add one even if the date is an estimate. Apparently, a Residence event on its own is not considered by WWT as sufficient to declare a person was there. I find that really puzzling - I can see that any facts falling outside the lifespan should be suppressed but if we know that someone was resident somewhere at a given time, why not include it?

edits in red

Edited by TomH, 26 March 2013 - 12:10 PM.

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