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#1 Jack

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:27 PM

I would like to search for blank source details that I omitted when I created the source on the Edit Source screen.

Using Indiana as an example:

Marriage place contains Indiana
and Marriage source text contains 1780
and marriage source detail comment is blank

I'm not getting the results I expected.

Do I have too many parameters to search on, not structured properly...?
Jack

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#2 TomH

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:02 PM

What is wrong with the results you are getting?

Remember that the search looks at all the Marriage events and citations for a person and so one criterion could be satisfied by one Marriage event, another criterion by a citation for a different marriage event. We easily fall into the trap of thinking that the logic looks only at one Marriage event and one of its sources at a time to do the test (which is how we would really like it to work, at least some of the time as an option).

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#3 Jack

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:25 PM

What is wrong with the results you are getting?


Well, I'm not finding what I'm searching for.


Remember that the search looks at all the Marriage events and citations for a person and so one criterion could be satisfied by one Marriage event, another criterion by a citation for a different marriage event. We easily fall into the trap of thinking that the logic looks only at one Marriage event and one of its sources at a time to do the test (which is how we would really like it to work, at least some of the time as an option).


I do have some couples that married more than once. I've been bitten like that in the past and, hope I've learned from that.
Jack

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#4 TomH

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:50 PM

I see a fault in RM's logic with Marriage > Source > Detail Comment is Blank. By itself, it returns persons who have no sources and persons with sources but no Marriage event! Now that is really useful! One would think that this criterion implicitly includes a test for a Marriage Source to exist. You might add that criterion to your search and see if that improves your results:

Marriage place contains Indiana
and Marriage source exists
and marriage source detail comment is blank

You can add the 1780 or other test after confirming that you are finding people with such citations more reliably.

Tom user of RM7230 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
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#5 Jack

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:15 PM

Marriage place contains Indiana
and Marriage source exists
and marriage source detail comment is blank


Thanks Tom. I'll give it a try!
Jack

a posteriori

#6 Jack

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:02 PM

Tom, the search parameters you suggested worked very well. The only problem is that it after awhile they also stop on every source detail that also contains a comment.

I progressed well through names in the RM Explorer and added my source info to the source detail comment. However, as I went deeper, the search began to stop on spouses of those I had earlier found and and had already added source detail.

Can you verify that?

Jack

PS: I think I should explain that I was adding source detail to marriages that already contained a source. The detail was added to include the web link to the marriage source. So, if I added source detail to Adams, John who married Truehart, Tess and finally worked down the list to her, the search stopped on her.
Jack

a posteriori

#7 TomH

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:26 PM

When you run the Find, it makes an internal list of the Persons who match the criteria so both Adams, John and Truehart, Tess are in the list. If you keep RM Explorer open without running Find again, I guess that list is unchanged even though you have added content to the Marriage Source Details Comment. So you would still hit them both as you Previous/Next through the Find results. If you re-run the Find, does it still stop on either of them?

Tom user of RM7230 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
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#8 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:32 PM

PS: I think I should explain that I was adding source detail to marriages that already contained a source. The detail was added to include the web link to the marriage source. So, if I added source detail to Adams, John who married Truehart, Tess and finally worked down the list to her, the search stopped on her.


The way I usually deal with this particular issue is to add a condition to search either only on all the males or only on all the females. That way you won't find each marriage twice, and it will work just fine unless you have some same sex couples.

Tom's suggestion to use the "exists" condition is really necessary for a lot of searches that are looking for missing data. From a highly technical point of view, the reason you have to use the "exists" condition is that RM searches do not distinguish blank data from null data. Blank data would be something like a marriage fact where some of the fields were blank, and null data would be something like where the marriage fact doesn't exist. (I'm slightly oversimplifying the explanation so it's not 100% accurate, but it's close enough. And I'm just using the marriage fact as an example. In your case, the issue is with the marriage source moreso than with the marriage fact, but the principle is the same in any case.)

In the case of facts and their data, it's sometimes really easy to see the distinction between blank data and null data in People View. In People View, if you sort on a column that contains both blank data and null data, blank data will sort to the top of the list and null data will sort to the bottom of the list (or vice versa) and your actual data that's not blank or null will sort in between.

Jerry

#9 Jack

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:53 PM

If you re-run the Find, does it still stop on either of them?


I don't know that yet, Tom! I've got some more to do later and I'll report back then. I wasn't aware that search made an internal list. I was thinking it made a new search each time I punched the next button.
Jack

a posteriori

#10 Jack

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:54 PM

In the case of facts and their data, it's sometimes really easy to see the distinction between blank data and null data in People View. In People View, if you sort on a column that contains both blank data and null data, blank data will sort to the top of the list and null data will sort to the bottom of the list (or vice versa) and your actual data that's not blank or null will sort in between.

Jerry


Jerry, I've noticed that. Particularly when sorting children when some have birth dates and others do not. Those without always sort to the top. When I know what the birth order is, I use the move down/up feature to sort.
Jack

a posteriori

#11 Jack

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:02 AM

OK...starting fresh this morning with:

Marriage place contains Indiana
and Marriage source exists
and Marriage source detail comment is blank

The search stops on every Indiana marriage irrespective of the condition of the source detail comment.
Jack

a posteriori

#12 TomH

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:43 AM

If there is more than one Marriage with a source or more than one source per Marriage and any one of the source detail comments is blank, then the search will be satisfied. The other Marriage need not be in Indiana; as long as one is, the "in Indiana" criterion is satisfied.

We have long asked for an enhancement to Search to force a search within the same fact, or search within the same source to resolve this very kind of problem.

Tom user of RM7230 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
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#13 Jack

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:52 AM

It appears then that I will be more or less forced to do this the hard way. :rolleyes:
Jack

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#14 TomH

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:38 AM

Would the Source List report outputting Source Text and Source Detail Comments be of any help? Save it to PDF and search for 1780 and inspect the related Comment.

Alternatively, if you were into SQLite, a custom query would list the ones you are looking for very quickly.

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#15 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:00 AM

OK...starting fresh this morning with:

Marriage place contains Indiana
and Marriage source exists
and Marriage source detail comment is blank

The search stops on every Indiana marriage irrespective of the condition of the source detail comment.


At the risk of asking the obvious, are you sure you are looking in the correct field?

Let's say that you run your Find command exactly as you specified above and that it stops first on Ann Adams, what with A being early in the alphabet. When it stops, you will not be able to see the Marriage source detail comment to see if it is blank or not.

What I would do next would be to click on the green check mark in the seoncd of three columns in the area of the screen called Individual Information. This will open another window called something like Marriage Sources for Ann Adams and John Doe (or whatever her husband's name was called). Since you included the "exists" condition in your Find command, there should be at least one Source in the list, and there may be more. But you still won't be able to see the Marriage source detail comment to see if it is blank or not.

So select the Source of interest and double click it to open it. You still won't be able to see the Marriage source detail comment to see if it is blank or not.

Finally, click the Detail Text tab. There will be two boxes containing text and the "Marriage source detail comment" data will be in the bottom box. I'm willing to bet that your bottom box will be empty and you didn't expect it to be. Either your text will be in the top box, or else it will be in one of the two boxes you see if you click the Master Source tab instead of the Detail Text tab.

As Tom said, this whole process is much messier if you have multiple marriages for some individuals, or if some of the marriages have multiple sources. For example, you could have a single marriage with two sources. If only one of the two sources had the "Marriage source detail comment" field blank, then the Find would stop even if the other source did not have a blank for the "Marriage source detail comment" field.

But you said the Find is stopping for every single individual who was married in Indiana. And I'm willing to bet that for most of your people there was only one marriage, and that for most of your marriages there was only one source. That's why I think you must be looking in the wrong field somehow or other.

Jerry

#16 Jack

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:33 PM

<quote>So select the Source of interest and double click it to open it. You still won't be able to see the Marriage source detail comment to see if it is blank or not.</quote>

Jerry:

Sure I can! I think you may be confusing Source Details with Research notes. After clicking on the check in the Marriage source column the Citation Manager opens. In the first column of that window is the Source Name. In the second column are the Details. That's what I'm searching for; empty/blank Source Details.

<quote>Finally, click the Detail Text tab. There will be two boxes containing text and the "Marriage source detail comment" data will be in the bottom box. I'm willing to bet that your bottom box will be empty and you didn't expect it to be. Either your text will be in the top box, or else it will be in one of the two boxes you see if you click the Master Source tab instead of the Detail Text tab.</quote>

The text from the marriage source is in the top box of the Detail Text. Go back to Citation and look down at the very bottom where it says Source Details. The little box there is labeled Page Number but I use it for inserting source details; e.g., index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch...M9.1.1/N312-7X5 : accessed 27 Nov 2012), Harley H. Greene and Ruby Coffy, 16 Oct 1921. What I am looking for are marriages with sources for which I have omitted inserting the source details.

For the record, this particular is sourced as "Michigan Marriages,1868-1925."

The Research notes are:

Groom's Name: Harley H. Greene Groom's Race: Groom's Age: 21 years Groom's Birth Date: 1900 Groom's Birthplace: Middleton, Michigan Bride's Name: Ruby Coffy Bride's Race: Bride's Age: 17 years Bride's Birth Date: 1904 Bride's Birthplace: Illinois Marriage Type: Marriage Date: 16 Oct 1921 Marriage Place: Maple Rapids, Gratiot, Michigan Groom's Father: Wm. Greene Groom's Mother: ...ffie Knight Bride's Father: Lewis Coffy Bride's Mother: Katie Campbell Groom's Marital Status: Groom's Previous Wife: Bride's Marital Status: Bride's Previous Husband: Film Number: 2342743 Frame Number: Digital Folder Number: 4032445 Image Number: 394 Reference Number: v 3 rn 1063

When I print their FGS, the source for their marriage reads "Michigan Marriages, 1865-1925 index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch...M9.1.1/N312-7X5 : accessed 27 Nov 2012), Harley H. Greene and Ruby Coffy,"

This tells anyone not sharing my RM db but, say getting a printed FGC, narrative, etc. if they want to see an image of the marriage record they should use that Family Search link. That's why it's important for me to find the blank/null Source Details and fill them in.

Without the Source Details it only prints "Michigan Marriages, 1865-1925." Not much help to someone attempting to prove my sources.
Jack

a posteriori

#17 Laura

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:20 PM

I make a Group and use Select group. Select Group is better than using Find when doing complicated searches.

To get Source detail, research note is blank, for males with marriages in Indiana, I used:

Mark:
Marriage, source, exists
AND Marriage, source, research note is blank.
Unmark:
Marriage, place, does not contain, Indiana
OR sex is female

As I work on making the corrections, I can edit the Group If I stop, I can start where I left off.

Unmark:
Marriage, source, research note is not blank.


I would like Find to be updated to use the Select Group feature instead of it's current search criteria screen.

#18 TomH

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:28 PM

Jack, I think you have confused the terminology and are getting unhelpful advice as a result! Your original search:

Marriage place contains Indiana
and Marriage source text contains 1780
and marriage source detail comment is blank

What I suggested as a prelim to be refined with the 1780 later:

Marriage place contains Indiana
and Marriage source exists
and Marriage source detail comment is blank

"Source detail comment" is not the same as the Source Detail Page field.
And where does 1780 come into play? I don't see it anywhere. Was it a typo for 1870? If so, it still will not be found just because there is something like "1865-1925" in the Master Source name or fields or text or comments - the characters "1870" must be present for that criterion to be satisfied.

I think your best bet is to print the Source List for "Michigan Marriages,1868-1925." and inspect the citations for missing [Page] values.

The following Search might also work

Marriage > exists > is True
AND
Marriage > source > exists
AND
Marriage > footnote > contains > "Michigan Marriages, 1865-1925" (sans quotes)
AND
Marriage > footnote > does not contain > "accessed" (sans quotes; or other term you consistently used in the Page field for these citations).

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#19 Jack

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 05:04 PM

I don't know about the rest of you but, I'm confusing myself now.

The Title of the Page Number section is clearly titled Source Details. I guess I should have recognized that as being inaccurate even those there is a search parameter for "Marriage source detail is blank." So, all this time I've been searching on Master Source source details!? Who woulda thought there were two source details but only one searchable. Perhaps that needs attention.

Let's just drop this discussion and I'll figure some way to do what I need. I don't want to spend a day configuring groups, etc. parameters, marking, unmarking, etc. just to find something that ought to be as simple to find as a surname or a marriage date.

Thanks to everyone for their time, efforts and suggestions.
Jack

a posteriori

#20 Laura

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 05:35 PM

If the object is to find people with linked sources without a Source details, details comment, we are all making it too complicated.

Search for:
Marriage, source, exists
AND, Marriage, source, detail comment is blank
AND, Marriage, place, contains, Indiana
AND Sex is male

If searching for a specific source, also search the source name.

To get a date range, add search filters for dates in the marriage fact.

This will work in Find and Search group.

Search Marriage, source, detail comment, contains [keyword(s)] instead of is blank if you can use keywords. The keyword could be part of a url.