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Online Map: Markers for geocoded Places and Sites

Online Map geocoding places place details google maps bing maps

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#1 TomH

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:29 PM

This is to request two things:
1. A really simple program revision in the next update to provide a marker on an Online Map (Bing map as called up by RM on the default Internet Browser) for Places and Place Details that are geocoded, and
2. A user setting to choose one's preferred Online Map mapping server, including Google Maps. On this point, previous explanations that Google requires a costly license fee is inapplicable as Online Map does not use the API - it merely generates a URL that it passes to the browser.

On Wish #1, if a place or place detail is geocoded, the current URL generated by Online Map calls up a Bing Map centered on the coordinates with no marker. It is easy to zoom or pan off center and lose the location. If a place is NOT geocoded, Online Map calls up a Bing Map with a labelled marker. Bing Maps does not provide a means to call up a map with coordinates that produces the equivalent of one called up by address but it does support the marking of coordinate locations on a route map. The wish is that the program be changed to use the latter mechanism for geocoded locations as described in http://forums.rootsm...due/#entry54888 .

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#2 Vyger

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:51 PM

Gets my vote

Customers should never be frustrated by things they cannot do.

 

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#3 kbens0n

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:21 PM

On this point, previous explanations that Google requires a costly license fee is inapplicable as Online Map does not use the API - it merely generates a URL that it passes to the browser.

I'm afraid you might be "naively" interpreting Google's licensing terms here. It's NOT just the API:

https://developers.g...#section_10_1_2
10.1.2 Restrictions against Commercial Use.
(a) No Fees. You must not charge users or any other third party any fee for the use of the Maps API Implementation, the Service, or the Content, except as permitted under Section 9.1.2 (Exceptions).

1.) the Maps API --- 2.) the Service --- 3.) the Content
There's a "wizard" here:
Google Maps and Google Earth Content Rules & Guidelines
http://support.googl...2531&page=ts.cs

---
--- "GENEALOGY, n. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." - Ambrose Bierce
--- "The trouble ain't what people don't know, it's what they know that ain't so." - Josh Billings
---Ô¿Ô---
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#4 Ludlow Bay

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:55 PM

I'm afraid you might be "naively" interpreting Google's licensing terms here. It's NOT just the API:

1.) the Maps API --- 2.) the Service --- 3.) the Content
There's a "wizard" here:
Google Maps and Google Earth Content Rules & Guidelines
http://support.googl...2531&page=ts.cs


I'd have to side with Tom here. If all RM does is set up the URL for the browser, this portion of Google's Content Rules & Guidelines (from the Wizard) would seem to come closer to this situation:

Linking to Google Maps


Feel free to use a hyperlink within your website or application to send people to Google Maps and Google Earth -- we appreciate it! Our one request is that you do not use the Google, Google Maps, or Google Earth logos as the hyperlink. Please just use text or another image of your choice.


If RM were to provide the Map in a RM-induced wrapper, that would indeed be an attempt to circumvent the edict to "not charge users ....for the use of ..."

#5 TomH

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

Kevin, thanks for restating the terms and conditions. I think I am being reasonable even if "naive" in the sense that I have not sought any licence from Google but, like any other user of its publicly accessible web Service, have accepted its terms and conditions for use. RootsMagic Inc is not the user in this case and its software does not access the Service. The RootsMagic software user accesses the Service with somebody else's browser software using an URL, however generated. Whatever constraints Google puts on that use of its Content is very likely similar to those that Bing or any other mapping service would place on its content.

I think, although obliquely, you agree that this is not the Google Maps API we are talking about so that section 10.1.2 is inapplicable as it comes under:

Google Maps/Google Earth APIs Terms of Service

Thank you for your interest in the Google Maps/Google Earth APIs. The Google Maps/Google Earth APIs are a collection of services that allow you to include maps, geocoding, places, and other Content from Google in your webpages or applications.

This is neither RootsMagic's nor its users' webpages or applications nor is it using the API.

And while composing this, I see Ludlow Bay has interpreted the Google Maps and Google Earth Content Rules & Guidelines exactly the way I do.

So RootsMagic Inc is completely off the hook in generating URLs for Google Maps and users of Google Maps must respect Fair Use and any other terms and conditions governing their own use of the Service.

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#6 kbens0n

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:55 PM

LOL, I'm gonna side with the software architect over you amateur web lawyers ANY day, SORRY :)

---
--- "GENEALOGY, n. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." - Ambrose Bierce
--- "The trouble ain't what people don't know, it's what they know that ain't so." - Josh Billings
---Ô¿Ô---
K e V i N


#7 Ludlow Bay

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:30 AM

LOL, I'm gonna side with the software architect over you amateur web lawyers ANY day, SORRY :)



Who you callin' amateur? Here's our perfessional bizness card ...
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#8 TomH

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:10 AM

LOL, I'm gonna side with the software architect over you amateur web lawyers ANY day, SORRY :)

I haven't the foggiest notion what you mean, Kevin. YOU are the user of the Service and consumer of the Content, regardless of the means by which the URL is generated for YOUR browser. What is the difference between Online Mapping and WebSearch? Absolutely none, if WebSearch uses an external browser, and, arguably, none even if it uses an internal browser because the whole, public web page from the Service, complete with logos, copyrights, user sign-in, notice of terms and conditions, etc. is presented to the user. What YOU do with the CONTENT after is subject to those terms and conditions. NO API from the Service is involved.

The "software architect" has no licensing issue, is providing a user assist that drives traffic to the public Service which is exactly what it wants, is not stripping, modifying or re-using the Content and is absolved of what the user does with the Content. So why don't you see that, get off the fence and side with the users who want to have the RootsMagic software hyperlink to the Mapping Service that best suits their needs?

Indeed, having made the comparison to WebSearch, it would be logical for Online Mapping to have not only built-in URL generators for the major Mapping Services (Google, Bing, ...) but also the equivalent tool to Custom Search Providers whereby users can add Custom Mapping Providers to the selection set.

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#9 TomH

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:15 AM

1. A really simple program revision in the next update to provide a marker on an Online Map (Bing map as called up by RM on the default Internet Browser) for Places and Place Details that are geocoded, and
...
On Wish #1, if a place or place detail is geocoded, the current URL generated by Online Map calls up a Bing Map centered on the coordinates with no marker. It is easy to zoom or pan off center and lose the location. If a place is NOT geocoded, Online Map calls up a Bing Map with a labelled marker. Bing Maps does not provide a means to call up a map with coordinates that produces the equivalent of one called up by address but it does support the marking of coordinate locations on a route map. The wish is that the program be changed to use the latter mechanism for geocoded locations as described in http://forums.rootsm...due/#entry54888 .

Now I wish I had started separate threads for each request so that #1 would not get lost in the jungle of debate about legalities. <_<

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#10 kbens0n

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:41 PM

I haven't the foggiest notion what you mean, Kevin.

I mean Bruce has looked into this (at least as deeply as you have) and determined (or interpreted) that it was not plausible. Do you honestly think you have some greater insight into these matters? Bruce was the guy who had to abandon a highly successful genealogy software product and start completely over again because of licensing issues with Genealogy.com. The simple point is people must pay Bruce money to buy his software to map their genealogy places. If "just" generating URLs through a user's browser was all it takes to avail oneself of Google Maps, why would anyone ever pay? A "non-compensating" use of Google Maps has to be completely free for anyone -and- accessible to anyone. Even then, there are limits on number of accesses per month, ETC. That is what I meant by "naïve" in your interpretation. You're certainly welcome to disagree with me, but have you considered the logic of why Bruce hasn't used Google Maps? Sorry to have interjected myself in your "wish-list" thread, but I'm positive that Rene will respond. Wait for it... ;)

---
--- "GENEALOGY, n. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." - Ambrose Bierce
--- "The trouble ain't what people don't know, it's what they know that ain't so." - Josh Billings
---Ô¿Ô---
K e V i N


#11 TomH

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:18 PM

Kevin, I think you conflate RootsMagic's Online Map button URL generator with RootsMagic Mapping, which uses an API to retrieve Content from the Mapping Service for display within the application. The latter delivers content modified by the application and is subject to the API terms and conditions. Online Map does not and is not so subject. Retrieving a map through the browser is completely free to everyone, whether the URL is generated by hand or by machine - it's the same URL. The user is governed only by the terms and conditions applying to the use of content; the author of the URL is simply encouraged to make URLs pointing to the service. The only logic I see for Bruce not using Google Maps for Online Map is that he rejected Google's fee for the unrelated API licence for RootsMagic Mapping and used Bing for both because a) it was convenient, or B) he did not anticipate users favouring Google over Bing, or c) he did not wish to direct traffic to Google Maps out of spite. This is not a request to change RootsMagic Mapping to Google; it is only to make available the option for users to choose Google Maps for Online Map.

Tom user of RM7550 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> RMtrix-tiny.png app, a bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#12 kbens0n

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:49 PM

You're right that I've gotten hung up in the licensing discussion ...as far as the function you've requested ...that is for Bruce to decide.

---
--- "GENEALOGY, n. An account of one's descent from an ancestor who did not particularly care to trace his own." - Ambrose Bierce
--- "The trouble ain't what people don't know, it's what they know that ain't so." - Josh Billings
---Ô¿Ô---
K e V i N


#13 Vyger

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:46 AM

On Wish #1, if a place or place detail is geocoded, the current URL generated by Online Map calls up a Bing Map centered on the coordinates with no marker. It is easy to zoom or pan off center and lose the location. If a place is NOT geocoded, Online Map calls up a Bing Map with a labelled marker. Bing Maps does not provide a means to call up a map with coordinates that produces the equivalent of one called up by address but it does support the marking of coordinate locations on a route map. The wish is that the program be changed to use the latter mechanism for geocoded locations as described in http://forums.rootsm...due/#entry54888 .


I have been working this morning with competitor software and one does a fine job in this respect although Place Details are not supported in the RM sense.

Old style Places like "198 Rose Street, Edinburgh" once highlighted come into focus in the majority of cases with a push pin on an embedded Bing Map so the "198 Rose Street, Edinburgh" must be getting sent to Bing as a search.

Additionally this program provides the feature "click on the map to set location" which when you do so lifts the geocoding and attaches to the Place.

There is also a button to "resolve unrecognized place name" which provides other options and the place UI shows those persons who share the Place which can be expanded to show the events.

I won't post images here but intend to update my own site and will post a link at a later date. I have long believed that the RM Place list deserves a major facelift from the ground up and this looks a good model of a well though out UI. What I am not sure about is whether the vendor is paying Bing for the extra functionality but it is something very welcome and as a subject which keeps cropping up, something I hope the Rootsmagician pays serious attention to.

Customers should never be frustrated by things they cannot do.

 

User of Family Historian 6.2.7, Rootsmagic 7.6.2, Family Tree Maker 2014 & Legacy 7.5

 

Excel to Gedcom conversion - simple getting started tutorials here

 

Root


#14 Renee Zamora

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:43 PM

Confirming enhancement requests are in our tracking system.
Renee
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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Online Map, geocoding, places, place details, google maps, bing maps