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Unused Citations after Import


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#1 Paul Harris

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 09:26 AM

Tom, you're going to love this one, too.

I am a refugee from Genbox, which is no longer in development. I was a big fan of Genbox, and still am. It had, and still has, the most evolved database structure and navigation system of any genealogy software ever made. Ninety percent of the persistent problems with RM being discussed on these boards simply do not exist in Genbox ------ as of ten year ago, but I digress. To the point:

Genbox had a separate Tab on the Person View called Identifiers. This is where you would record and document Name Variations and designate the primary name and the preferred name. I would also record all spelling variations separately with the appropriate citation. After importing into RM, if I run a 'Print' report from the Source List I see the citations to Name and Alt Name, but the Name citations are not associated with anything on the Person Record. I am assuming that this is because RM treats the preferred name as the Person Record and the Alt Names are 'Events.'

What this leads me to believe is that ALL of my Name citations are in the database, but not linked to anything. Either they should be removed from the database, or 'updated' to link to the primary name with a SQLite editor, but what do they need to be changed to in order to support the primary name?

Paul

#2 Romer

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 10:19 AM

Paul, it might be of interest to see what the GEDCOM export from Genbox of these items might look like. Can you copy and past a relevant snippet?

#3 TomH

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 12:50 PM

I don't understand your description of the problem. What do you mean by Person Record? - what's displayed in the Edit Person screen? If so, I don't get how the Source List can show a citation pointing to a person or one of his facts and not be accessible on the Edit Person screen. Have you examined RM's import error log? - there may be a clue therein. PM me if you want me to have a look at your database.

Tom user of RM7230 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a growing bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#4 Paul Harris

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:58 PM

Is it possible to post images in this forum?

#5 Paul Harris

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 06:54 PM

Tom, et al.,

Let me put it another way:

Example of Citations 'Printed' from Source List for Daniel E. Stanton


1691. Stanton, Daniel E. (Name). 4:441 (1.52), 442 (1.08, 1.17). Quality: Secondary
1692. Stanton, Daniel E.-4364 (Birth). 4:441 (1.52). Quality: Unknown
1693. Stanton, Daniel E.-4364 (Burial). 4:441 (1.52-3). Quality: Unknown
1694. Stanton, Daniel E.-4364 (Death). 4:441 (1.52). Quality: Unknown
1695. Stanton, Daniel E.-4364 and Bundy, Rebecca D.-4970 (Marriage). 4:375 (1.31), 441 (2.49-52). Quality: Unknown




Individual Summary 24 August 2012

Name: Daniel E. Stanton-4364
Sex: Male
Father: Edmund Stanton-4321 (1816-1850)
Mother: Sarah Hoyle-4357 ( - )
Individual Facts
Birth 28 Aug 1850 Belmont County, Ohio1
Death 25 Apr 1919 (age 68) Belmont County, Ohio1
Burial Stillwater, Belmont County, Ohio2
Marriages/Children
1. Rebecca D. Bundy-4970 (1853-1926)
Marriage 9 Oct 1872 (age 22) Stillwater Meeting House, Belmont County, Ohio3
Children Sarah Elma Stanton-4971 (1873- )
Edmund C. Stanton-4972 (1877- )



Endnotes 24 August 2012

1. William Wade Hinshaw, Encyclopedia of American Quaker Genealogy, 6 Volumes (Baltimore: Genealogical
Publishing Company, 1973), 4:441 (1.52). [Annotation]
2. Hinshaw, Encyclopedia of American Quaker Genealogy, 4:441 (1.52-3). [Annotation]
3. Hinshaw, Encyclopedia of American Quaker Genealogy, 4:375 (1.31), 441 (2.49-52). [Annotation]

====================================================================================

There are five citations for Daniel E. Stanton linked to the Source, but only four of them show up in the Individual Summary Report. The one that is missing is highlighted in blue. Presumably, in RM, that should be linked to the Person Record, which is selected when you open the Edit Person Screen. It is the area where the "Name" is stored.

In order to get these citations properly linked, I imagine the portion of the database record marked (Name) must be changed to another value?

Paul

Edit: Just ran a test and now see that those (Name) citations need to be changed to (Personal), correct?

#6 TomH

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 08:21 PM

Edit: Just ran a test and now see that those (Name) citations need to be changed to (Personal), correct?

That's what it looks like, on the surface. How you would do so is a bit problematic. Using SQLite, I would change the value for OwnerType and OwnerID in the CitationTable so that they would point to the Alternate Name or Primary Name in the NameTable. But how do we know which citation goes with which Alternate Name? Certainly easiest to simply point them all to the Primary Name. I think that is feasible. I don't think there is a way to copy or move them in RM itself, especially if you cannot get at them through the Citation Manager.

Do you see a "Name" fact type in the Lists > Fact Type List? I assume so, since that is where "(Name)" would have come from in the Source List report. But I suspect there is no such fact type listed in the facts/events for the Person. RM's Name and Alternate Name facts are stored in the NameTable while other facts/events are stored in the EventTable. Your "Name" fact is a custom fact type not found in a default RM database. It sounds as though RM may have imported the values of the GenBox "Name" fact into RM Names and created a custom "Name" event on import which is never used (?!); RM also imported the citations to the unused "Name" event but how it gets related to the Person escapes me. I would have to examine the database tables to figure that out. Again, examination of the RM import log might hold some clues.

Possibly, operations on the GEDCOM prior to importing would be a good way to affix these citations to the Person.

Tom user of RM7230 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a growing bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#7 Paul Harris

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 10:35 PM

Do you see a "Name" fact type in the Lists > Fact Type List? I assume so, since that is where "(Name)" would have come from in the Source List report. But I suspect there is no such fact type listed in the facts/events for the Person. RM's Name and Alternate Name facts are stored in the NameTable while other facts/events are stored in the EventTable. Your "Name" fact is a custom fact type not found in a default RM database. It sounds as though RM may have imported the values of the GenBox "Name" fact into RM Names and created a custom "Name" event on import which is never used (?!); RM also imported the citations to the unused "Name" event but how it gets related to the Person escapes me. I would have to examine the database tables to figure that out. Again, examination of the RM import log might hold some clues.


The "Name" fact type does not appear in the Fact Type List. I believe the "Name" citations are for the Primary Name in Genbox. Further investigation leads me to believe that the only "Alt Names" that were imported were "Married Names," so the citations seem to align with those. So, I think that converting all "Name" citations to "Personal," so to speak, would at least preserve the citations to the Primary Names. All of the "Name Variant" identifiers in Genbox containing spelling variations, etc., did not survive the import. I will have to look to see if they were exported in the Gedcom.

#8 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 08:34 PM

Is it possible to post images in this forum?


Since the upgrade to the forum software, the answer to the question is "yes". There have been a few postings recently with images. When you are composing a message, there is a tool bar above the data entry area. The "image" icon in the tool bar is about the middle of the second row of icons.

Unfortunately, we seem to have lost spell checking the the upgrade of the forum software, unless it's so well hidden that I haven't found it yet.

Jerry

#9 Paul Harris

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 05:33 PM

Tom,

PM'd you.

Paul

#10 TomH

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:40 PM

Paul and I have had some private dialog and we now have an understanding of the problem and its solution. And it is not confined to the import of a GEDCOM generated by GenBox; the same is true for those from Ancestry.com. I imported an Ancestry GEDCOM with 309 people and 2052 citations, of which 558 have become invisible on the Edit Person screen, invisible in RootsMagic Explorer and do not come out as footnotes in various reports. The citations still exist in the database and are reported in the Source List report -- you just cannot use them. And they survive a drag and drop transfer to a new database!

So this is a bug that may have been around for a long time or perhaps only recently. Both he and I are using RM 5.0.4.1. His import from GenBox was done on RM4; my latest import from Ancestry on 5.0.3.2 or 5.0.4.1 but I also have a small number of invisible citations in my main database that could have been imported using RM4. It is a display and reporting bug, not an import bug per se although a procedural change in the GEDCOM import might obviate any need to change the program for multiple display screens and reports.

I developed a SQLite query that lists these invisible citations. Using it on his database, Paul found he had 3616.

He came up with a manual modification to the records in the CitationTable that converts them to Personal citations that are visible but could not face the monumental task of doing them all, one at a time. So I wrote another query that does the batch conversion in the blink of an eye. He confirms that it worked for him with no adverse consequences on initial inspection.

I've posted the two queries on the SQLiteToolsForRootsMagic wiki with some more explanation of the problem and the workaround:

Citations Invisible Revealed

Edited by TomH, 10 September 2012 - 09:30 PM.

Tom user of RM7230 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
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#11 TomH

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:51 PM

Just observed the same 'invisible' citations problem on an import from Ancestry by RM 4.1.2.1 so this is a longstanding issue.

Tom user of RM7230 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
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#12 Renee Zamora

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:15 AM

Confirming issue is noted in our tracking system.
Renee
RootsMagic

#13 Paul Harris

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:59 PM

My immense gratitude for Tom's generous assistance in this issue.

Paul

#14 TomH

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:53 PM

Going back to Family Origins 9, I found that it did not import citations for the Preferred Name, nor did it import any Alternate Names at all, nor, of course, their citations. Total citations imported 1437 cf 2052 imported by RM4 and 5. Take away the 558 invisible citations for Primary Name and we're left with 1494, not much better than FO9 but they are in the database. Another 57 are citations for Alternate Names, not imported by FO9, and, lo, 1494-57=1437.

So there has been progress on this front over the 12 years since FO9 - the GEDCOM LST report is much shorter, given that Alternate Names and citations for Names are no longer rejected. However, there's not much point in importing something if it's unusable. Let's hope the job of revealing citations for Primary Names gets completed soon.

Tom user of RM7230 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a growing bundle of RootsMagic utilities.


#15 RassilonRegenerated

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 09:33 PM

I've posted the two queries on the SQLiteToolsForRootsMagic wiki with some more explanation of the problem and the workaround:

Citations Invisible Revealed

Tom you are becoming my new best friend! I have just wasted two hours banging my head against a wall try to figure out why I can find a citation using find everywhere but I could not for the life of me find it in the interface. Yes this bug still exists in RM6 from import of Ancestry GEDCOMS. Thank you again for your excellent resources on the web. I am still working on getting the bugs out of the workflow Ancestry <-> RM6 <-> FamilySearch



#16 TomH

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 02:17 PM

Guess what. TMG GEDCOMs can also have citations AND memos (notes) that become invisible in the Edit Person screen when imported into RootsMagic 6.3.1.4. Other programs may also export GEDCOMs of this sort, potentially also with media that also cannot be accessed from the Edit Person screen and probably unavailable to reports. In addition to Citations Invisible Revealed, now there is a need for Notes Invisible Revealed (done) and, potentially, Media Invisible Revealed...
 
It appears that citations and memos for tags from the TMG Name group that export to the GEDCOM NAME tag will disappear from those that are the first or only NAME tag imported by RootsMagic. They are in the database - just in places you cannot get at through the current user interface.


Edited by TomH, 24 August 2014 - 07:00 PM.

Tom user of RM7230 FTM2017 Ancestry.ca FamilySearch.org FindMyPast.com
SQLite_Tools_For_Roots_Magic_in_PR_Celti wiki, exploiting the database in special ways >>> Rmtrix_tiny.png app, a growing bundle of RootsMagic utilities.