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Arrangement of Family Facts in the Family Group Sheet Report


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#1 leeirons

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:51 PM

I would first like to say that I am extremely happy with the Family Group Sheet report In Roots Magic 5 (the first version I have ever used of Roots Magic) and how it lists facts, notes, endnotes, and bibliography. This is a much better layout than other genealogy programs I have used. I think there is one additional thing that could be done to improve the layout. The Family Group Sheet Report lists all of the family facts under the father heading just after the father's individual facts. Considering that family facts apply to both the father and the mother, I recommend that family facts be listed either before the father under a heading such as "Family" or just before the Children section of the Family Group Sheet below the mother's parents. The former option (listing them before the father under a Family heading) would align better with the notes that are printed at the end of the Family Group Sheet, which notes are listed in the order of Family Notes, Father Notes, Mother Notes, and Child Notes.

#2 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 09:30 AM

Does anyone else agree that this would be the family group sheet much more legible? The current layout makes it look like the family facts are all just additional father facts.

#3 Nettie

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 09:37 AM

Does anyone else agree that this would be the family group sheet much more legible? The current layout makes it look like the family facts are all just additional father facts.


Print from Reports List the Family Group Sheet and you will have the layout you want. We have had this since FO days. Other software also does this same thing. Many of us like it as it is.... :)

Genealogy:
"I work on genealogy only on days that end in "Y"." [Grin!!!]
from www.GenealogyDaily.com.
"Documentation....The hardest part of genealogy"
"Genealogy is like Hide & Seek: They Hide & I Seek!"
" Genealogists: People helping people.....that's what it's all about!"
from http://www.rootsweb....nry/gentags.htm
Using FO and RM since FO2.0 


#4 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 10:04 AM

Print from Reports List the Family Group Sheet and you will have the layout you want. We have had this since FO days. Other software also does this same thing. Many of us like it as it is.... :)

Not sure what you are saying. :) Are you saying that I should create my own custom report?

The standard Family Group Sheet report SHOULD NOT list the family facts under the father. Here is the problem. I just tested this and verified that it is a problem. When the family does not have a known father but does have a known mother, when the standard Family Group Sheet report is generated, the family facts do not show up AT ALL on the family group sheet, because there is no father to list them under. Thus, in the current state of RM5, data that is entered as family facts will never appear on a family group sheet without a known father. :blink:

#5 Nettie

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 10:20 AM

Which family facts are you talking about?
Marriage is a family fact if there is a spouse or was a spouse.
Census (family) is a family fact. Or are you saying others are?

Help menus says "while some of the Family fact types are: Marriage, Engagement, and Divorce." Annulment, Census (family) are a family fact. Marriage Bond, Marriage contract, Marriage License, Marriage settlement, etc

The above are from the Fact List and right hand screen tells you what type of fact it is. Built in facts you can not change but can add your own and change them.

Event is a personal fact.

I cannot re create what you described as the database with a person with no spouses is still in RM4 and not converted. Yes this is a paternal system. So do not see what you are referring to.

Genealogy:
"I work on genealogy only on days that end in "Y"." [Grin!!!]
from www.GenealogyDaily.com.
"Documentation....The hardest part of genealogy"
"Genealogy is like Hide & Seek: They Hide & I Seek!"
" Genealogists: People helping people.....that's what it's all about!"
from http://www.rootsweb....nry/gentags.htm
Using FO and RM since FO2.0 


#6 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 12:19 PM

Which family facts are you talking about?

For example, it is possible to find a census record in which the father is not recorded. If this happens to be the only information you have on the family, then you have no information to enter regarding a father. So, you enter the listed children and the mother, and create the census family fact while in the mother's Edit Person window. Then, when you go to print a Family Group Sheet for this family, the census family fact does not show up, because there is no father under which to list it.

This is why I say that the family facts should be listed separately on the Family Group Sheet, either before the father, between the father and mother, after the mother, or after the children.

By the way, this has nothing to do with whether or not I condone single mothers or "alternative family system." This is simply a matter of not having information on the father, regardless of whether there ever was a father. So if the developers are trying to make a moral or religious point byu listing the family facts under the father, this has nothing to do with morality or religion. It is just a data organization and reporting issue. ;) Thus, no genealogy software should ever be developed from either a paternisic or maternistic view.

Print from Reports List the Family Group Sheet and you will have the layout you want.

Still not sure what you mean by this.

#7 Laura

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 12:26 PM

When the family does not have a known father but does have a known mother, when the standard Family Group Sheet report is generated, the family facts do not show up AT ALL on the family group sheet, because there is no father to list them under. Thus, in the current state of RM5, data that is entered as family facts will never appear on a family group sheet without a known father. :blink:


Family facts do not apply to children only the linked spouses, married or unmarried.

Family facts are entered into one spouse's record and the program adds it to the linked second person's record.

If there is no known father or mother, there are no family facts to be printed on the Family Group Sheet.

A family fact with no linked spouse cannot be entered in RootsMagic.

When I add a family fact to a person, a screen comes up to choose which linked spouse to add the fact to. There is also the option to Add a new spouse.

Clicking on Add a new spouse brings up the Add Spouse screen to choose to add a new person to the database or find an existing person.

If you cancel out that screen, the fact is not added.

I don't care where the family facts are put on the FGS, just so it is there when I have linked spouses.

#8 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 12:46 PM

Family facts do not apply to children only the linked spouses, married or unmarried.

Family facts are entered into one spouse's record and the program adds it to the linked second person's record.

If there is no known father or mother, there are no family facts to be printed on the Family Group Sheet.

I use family facts for the whole family, not just the marriage. I share the family fact with the parents and the children who are listed in the source citation that I have linked to the fact. I then enter the data from the source citation that applies to each child and parent in the Notes field of the role of each person the fact is shared with. This allows me to create the fact once for an entire family of people who are listed in the source record, rather than creating indvidual facts for each member of the family. This is actually using the fact capability of RM5 to create events, from which evidence of relationship ties can be gleaned. It enables the establishment of facts (events) that tie children to parents, since Roots Magic does not have the ability to tie a fact to the Parent Family details, but only a source citation. The use of individual birth facts only establish that a person was born. They do not establish to whom the person was born. If they did, then we could take the same approach with marriages and simply use individual marriage facts to tie a person to a spouse. What is good for marriage relationships is good for birth relaionships, so I use the family fact to establish both spouse-spouse and parent-child relationships.

Note, the way I am using RM5 produces a very nice looking and comprehensive Family Group Sheet in RM5 that provides a written report that demonstrates how the eviodence ties families together.

Having said all of this, whether or not you agree with the way I am using the tool or the way I document my genealogical research and establish proof, there is still no valid justification for listing family facts (or marriage facts) under the father on the Family Group Sheet. They should be listed between the father and mother. :)

#9 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 12:50 PM

Note, I only addressed the moral and religious point because Nettie mentioned the system being paternistic. I am likely the same religion as you anyway, Laura, so there is no angst here. :) Just hoping that RM5 is going to be the final answer to my genealogical software needs. All of the others have fallen short. The ONLY issue I have found with RM5 being able to support the way I establish, document, and report proof is this Family Group Sheet report issue. Everything else seems to be fantastic, so far. :)

#10 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 12:53 PM

A family fact with no linked spouse cannot be entered in RootsMagic.

When I add a family fact to a person, a screen comes up to choose which linked spouse to add the fact to. There is also the option to Add a new spouse.

Clicking on Add a new spouse brings up the Add Spouse screen to choose to add a new person to the database or find an existing person.

If you cancel out that screen, the fact is not added.

This has nothing to do with any moral or religious views of the developer.

I'm not sure why you are saying it can't be done. I have done it. When the Add Spouse Screen comes up, it gives me the list of persons, the option to add a new spouse, and a "blank" option. I simply used the blank option.

#11 Nettie

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 01:01 PM

Note, I only addressed the moral and religious point because Nettie mentioned the system being paternistic.



Never said I was paternistic :o

Genealogy:
"I work on genealogy only on days that end in "Y"." [Grin!!!]
from www.GenealogyDaily.com.
"Documentation....The hardest part of genealogy"
"Genealogy is like Hide & Seek: They Hide & I Seek!"
" Genealogists: People helping people.....that's what it's all about!"
from http://www.rootsweb....nry/gentags.htm
Using FO and RM since FO2.0 


#12 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 01:06 PM

Which family facts are you talking about?
Marriage is a family fact if there is a spouse or was a spouse.
Census (family) is a family fact. Or are you saying others are?

Help menus says "while some of the Family fact types are: Marriage, Engagement, and Divorce." Annulment, Census (family) are a family fact. Marriage Bond, Marriage contract, Marriage License, Marriage settlement, etc

The above are from the Fact List and right hand screen tells you what type of fact it is. Built in facts you can not change but can add your own and change them.

Event is a personal fact.

I cannot re create what you described as the database with a person with no spouses is still in RM4 and not converted. Yes this is a paternal system. So do not see what you are referring to.

Quote and italics added to the above quote for emphasis.

I didn't say you said you were paternistic, Nettie. You said the system was paternistic/paternal. :) Anyway, I'm not upset at anybody or offended. Hope none of you are upset or offended. Typed messages can seem so impersonal. :)

#13 Romer

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 01:16 PM

Lee, I think there's a difference in semantics at play. You're talking about adding a relationship to a spouse (albeit a blank spouse in this case).

Adding a family fact/event, such as marriage, divorce, etc, on the other hand, jointly applies to a person and spouse. That fact is entered once and then appears in the list of facts in both people's Edit Person screens.

*Edit: I stand corrected -- I was actually just able to successfully add a marriage between a person and his previously entered blank spouse from that person's Edit Person screen.

#14 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 01:24 PM

I don't care where the family facts are put on the FGS, just so it is there when I have linked spouses.

Laura,

You keep editing your reply and adding to what you originally said. It makes it difficult to have a sequential community discussion. It makes it look like I am dominating the conversation. ;)

Thank you for noting that it would not cause you any problems if the location of the family facts was moved to be between the father and mother. That is good to hear that we could both get what we want without negatively impacting each other.

#15 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 01:37 PM

Lee, I think there's a difference in semantics at play. You're talking about adding a relationship to a spouse (albeit a blank spouse in this case).

Adding a family fact/event, such as marriage, divorce, etc, on the other hand, jointly applies to a person and spouse. That fact is entered once and then appears in the list of facts in both people's Edit Person screens.

Romer, I'm not sure you got my full point. Let me try to explain this in the context of how I do research. The method that I use to perform, document, and publish genealogical proof uses special facts that I call Organization, Proximity, Interment, Occasion, and Transaction. People show up as clusters in source records. The special facts I use are the five general types of clustering of people that exist in the world of source records. I use such clusters to establish evidence of family groupings. In RM5, I set these up as Family Facts to which I link the source citation that contains the cluster. I then share the fact with each person that I am using the linked source citation to prove that they are a member of the family, with the role note stating how the source citation demonstrates that this person is a member of the family. Using this approach produces a published Family Group Sheet in RM5 that tells the reader how I am proving that all of these people are related.

#16 Laura

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 01:52 PM

I'm not sure why you are saying it can't be done. I have done it. When the Add Spouse Screen comes up, it gives me the list of persons, the option to add a new spouse, and a "blank" option. I simply used the blank option.



There is no "blank" option in RootsMagic.

Try it for yourself. Add a family fact to a person's Edit person screen. Highlight Add a new spouse. Click on OK.

The Add Spouse screen has three buttons.

Add new person - brings up the Add Spouse screen which adds a new person to be linked as a spouse which is not already in the database to the database.

Select existing person - brings up RootsMagic Explorer to select the spouse from the persons already in the database.

Cancel - goes back to the Edit person screen without adding the fact because you didn't choose a person in the database to link the fact to.

#17 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 01:52 PM

If there is no known father or mother, there are no family facts to be printed on the Family Group Sheet.

Let me present a case for why you might want to have a marriage fact when there is no know husband of a family. You could use a marriage family fact to identify that there are no know sources of who the husband was. Call it a null fact. In the note asociated with the fact, you could identify all of the repositories and sources you have already searched through.

#18 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 01:59 PM

There is no "blank" option in RootsMagic.

Try it for yourself. Add a family fact to a person's Edit person screen. Highlight Add a new spouse. Click on OK.

The Add Spouse screen has three buttons.

Add new person - brings up the Add Spouse screen which adds a new person to be linked as a spouse which is not already in the database to the database.

Select existing person - brings up RootsMagic Explorer to select the spouse from the persons already in the database.

Cancel - goes back to the Edit person screen without adding the fact because you didn't choose a person in the database to link the fact to.


Laura, We are obviously using two different programs. ;) I have done what I said I did and it worked. First, I added a mother to a person without adding a father. Then I openned the mother's person window and added a family fact. When the Spouses window comes up, it shows a blank option and an add spouse option. I use the balnk option. It works and anyone that does what I just did would see the same thing.

#19 Romer

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 02:08 PM

Laura, I was initially confused by the discussion between Lee and you, but think I've worked it out:

I was able to add a family fact to a person and his blank spouse through the Edit Person screen. I'd previously added a spouse to a person. I then opened the person's Edit Person screen and tried to add a Marriage fact. When the list of spouses came up, I chose the line that was blank, and the fact was successfully added to the person. In the Details column, no spouse's name is listed, implying a blank spouse, so it looks as though it took. Confusion could reign, however, if there were multiple blank spouses in play!

#20 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 02:16 PM

Laura, I was initially confused by the discussion between Lee and you, but think I've worked it out:

I was able to add a family fact to a person and his blank spouse through the Edit Person screen. I'd previously added a spouse to a person. I then opened the person's Edit Person screen and tried to add a Marriage fact. When the list of spouses came up, I chose the line that was blank, and the fact was successfully added to the person. In the Details column, no spouse's name is listed, implying a blank spouse, so it looks as though it took. Confusion could reign, however, if there were multiple blank spouses in play!

The discussion has kinda wandered off the point of the thread. What RM5 currently allows (regarding adding a family fact to a person who does not yet have a spouse identified) is what I want, so that is just fine. Please do not change it.

To bring the thread back on point, what I would like to see is the family facts moved to be between the father and mother on the Family Group Record report, because when there is no father yet added to the pedigree, the family facts that are linked to the existing mother will not show up on the Family Group Record report. Even when there is both a father and mother in the pedigree, I still would like the family facts to be listed between the Father and Mother, because there is no way to differentiate between a father's individual facts and the family facts when the family facts are listed under the father.