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Support of the word "County" by County Check Feature in RM5


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#1 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 08:38 PM

I, too, insist on using the word "County" with the county name, and do not wish to go into my justification for this at this time. This, and Standardized Place Names, could be very helpful IF they would accommodate the OPTION of using "County." I'm not interested in forcing anybody to do things my way, and vice versa.

The above is from the new RM5 forums, and I can't express it any better myself. I wish for the new RM5 County Check feature to permit the word "County" in names it checks. Without this enhancement, I cannot use the County Check feature.

The word "Parish" should also be supported for Louisiana, and the word "County" should be permitted to be before the county's name in cases where that makes sense, and to be be after the county's name in cases where that makes sense.

Finally, County Check should work for U.S. names whether or not "USA" or "United States of America" is included at the end of the place name.

Putting this all together, if a birth place for someone born in 1797 is just "Anderson County, Tennessee", then County Check should recognize "Anderson County, Tennessee" as a valid name and also recognize that there is a conflict because Anderson County, Tennessee was not created until 1801. And County Check should be perfectly fine if the birth place for someone born in 1805 was "Anderson County, Tennessee".

Jerry

#2 khaden

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:48 AM

First of all, I do very much like the idea of reminders that a place may not have existed at a certain time - especially valuable if I'm evaluating a GEDCOM produced by someone else.

But I am definitely another supporter of being able to use "County" in my place names without the constant and irritating reminder. I have rural families and they did not live in towns - the county designation is important to me as a county entity.

I also do NOT want to put in "United States" after every place name, which would then appear in every report, chart, etc. and make many place names ridiculously long. I live in the United States. Virtually 99% of my research is in the United States and probably 95% of the place names. I simply don't want a report printed out with "United States" on each and every line. Please, please give us the option to modify how we wish our place names to appear.

#3 Nettie

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 10:14 AM



I also do NOT want to put in "United States" after every place name, which would then appear in every report, chart, etc. and make many place names ridiculously long. I live in the United States. Virtually 99% of my research is in the United States and probably 95% of the place names. I simply don't want a report printed out with "United States" on each and every line. Please, please give us the option to modify how we wish our place names to appear.


I agree, please give us an option to modify this and also the choice on the county issue.

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#4 Helen

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 01:49 PM

I agree, please give us an option to modify this and also the choice on the county issue.



Me too!

#5 Glenn

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 01:12 PM

How do you keep place names (from smallest to largest) unit in the same "quantity"? (This is not the word I want to use, but . . .)
Ignoring street address, which would go in place details, I have:
city, county, state; a total of three divisions.
Then you have certain states like New York which have no "un-named" areas like California.
California: City (with defined borders), County, State. Anything not within city limits is known as unincorporated County territory.
New York: No "unincorporated" territory: City, Town, County, State.

Like khaden, who has ". . . rural families and they did not live in towns - the county designation is important to me as a county entity."

Please forgive me if I'm not making much sense. At one time, if I remember correctly, a place with only two divisions wouldn't sort very close to a 3-division place.

Glenn


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#6 Jerry Bryan

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 02:04 PM

How do you keep place names (from smallest to largest) unit in the same "quantity"?

If I understand your question correctly, I don't think you can or should try to keep place names in the same "quantity".

Let's work this problem a little bit backwards. What should go in Place Details? Most people would put cemeteries and hospitals in Place Details, and I think also street addresses. Also, it turns out that if someone was born at home or died at home, then simply entering "home" without the quotes in the Place Details results in a default fact sentence that reads very nicely.

Then what should go in the place field? Most people would put everything else in the place field. As you point out, all of your "everything else's" will not have the same "quantity". For example, you might have "city, state" (quantity 2), "county, state" (quantity 2), "city, county, state" (quantity 3), or "state" (quantity 1). And some people would add "USA" or "United States" or "United States of America" at the end of each of the above, increasing each of the quantities by 1.

But to the main thrust of your question, it's very difficult to see how you could ever reconcile a place of the form "county, state" to a place of the form "state" to get them to have the same quantity when in the second case you don't know the county. There used to be a lot of people who would use a leading comma to indicate that the county is not known - something like ",state". That gets you to where "county, state" and ",state" each have the same quantity, but at the cost of huge ugliness, in my opinion. That is, I'm thinking of ",state" as having a quantity of 2 but the county is null or unknown.

I have finessed the issue of whether to include the word "County" or not when I have been talking about your quantities. That is, both "Sevier, Tennessee" and "Sevier County, Tennessee" mean the same thing and both are of quantity 2. I personally have a lot of heartburn over omitting the word "County", chiefly because places of the form "city, state" and "county, state" are of the same quantity so you can't tell them apart by their form. To me, the only way you can tell the two forms apart is if the word "County" (or "Parish" in Louisiana) is always included.

I have simplified all my examples by omitting any reference to Townships, Civil Districts, or other similar political subdivisions. I'm not sure if everyone agrees, but it seems to me that when these kinds of political subdivisions are used, they belong in the Place field rather than in the Place Details field.

I have not tried to address places outside the USA in this note. I think it would be better if researchers from those countries chimed in on this issue.

On the issue of including the word "County" (or "Parish") or not, irrespective of one's opinion, it doesn't change the discussion of your "quantity" because including "County" or not does not change the number of commas. On the issue of including "United States" at the end or not, it again doesn't change the discussion of your "quantity". Adding "United States" does require the addition of one comma, but you would be adding one comma everywhere. For example, "city, state, United States" and "county, state, United States" would both be of quantity 3, and they would have the same ambiguity factor as do "city, state" and "county, state".

There are a lot of legitimate differences of opinion on these issues, and I'm sure there will be additional comments.

Jerry

#7 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 11:35 AM

What you are all talking about is what I would call preferential place naming. I think if you all play around with the new capability in RM5, you will find that it allows you to do this while still using the County Checker and the Geocoding.

For example, Newport News, Virginia is not in a county. So:
1. I enter "Newport News, Virginia" in the Place field of a Fact.
2. I click on the Save button, causing the Check County window to appear.
3. I highlight "Newport News, Virginia, United States" and click on the Change button.
4. Click on the globe button at the right end of the Place field, causing the Place List window to appear.
5. Highlight "Newport News, Virginia, United States" and click on the Edit button, causing the Edit Place window to appear.
6. Click on the Geocode button, and notice that the system still does not recognize the location.
7. Enter "Newport News, Newport News, Virginia, United States" in the Place field of the Edit Place window and then click on the Geocode button. "Newport News, Newport News (city), Virginia, United States" appears in the Standardized Place Name field and the Latitude and Longitude fields are filled with the latitude and longitude of the city.
8. Change what is in the Place field back to "Newport News, Virginia" (my preferential place name) and click on the OK button, which closes the Edit Place window.
9. Click on the Select button, which closes the Place List window.
10. Click on the Save button in the Fact again. When the County Checker window comes up, click on the Cancel button. It now keeps the way I prefer my Place to be written.

This same appraoch can be used for any place, including using the word "County" before or after county names, and including having different "quantities" of names. It allows you to use the full functionality of Roots Magic 5. My only complaint is that it is a long procedure. I'm not sure that it would be possible to make it any easier, considering the complexity of being able to have preferential place naming while using County Checker and Geocoding at the same time. :)

#8 leeirons

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 11:57 AM

Note, you have to use the procedure I describe above in order to use Geocoding for old locations that are not recognized by Bing (the mapping system used by RM5). Once you have made it past the County Checker to validate the date/county combination, in the Edit Place window, you need to enter the modern name of the location so that you can Geocode it, and then you can change the Place name back to its old name that you are using and click on the OK button. If you have to go through the County Checker again, just click Cancel, since you already used the County Checker to previously validate your date/county combination.

#9 Don Newcomb

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 10:18 AM

Finally, County Check should work for U.S. names whether or not "USA" or "United States of America" is included at the end of the place name.

In the US, Canada & England I don't use the country name with places. I also abbreviate some long state names by truncation. (e.g. Massachusetts => Mass.) I would hope that County Check would allow for these practices. If not, I'll just have to turn the feature off.

#10 Romer

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 02:10 PM

When I first started using genealogy software, I'd read that it was important to spell things out so that there would be no ambiguity either for me or for anyone else interpreting reading what I'd entered.

So, I'm one of those who perhaps goes a bit to the extreme to make sure that there's no question in entering places:

, , , United States
, , Florida, United States
, Hillsborough County, Florida, United States
Tampa, Hillsborough County, Florida, United States

I'd turned off CountyCheck, but hope that my data entry practices can be made to peacefully coexist with any future potential changes in how it works.

#11 Renee Zamora

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:18 PM

Confirming enhancement request are in our tracking system.
Renee
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